1 2 Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania 3 Northern Tier Coalition Comprehensive Plan 4 Zoning Ordinance and Zoning Map 5 Public Hearing 6 7 * * * * 8 9 Bridgewater Township 10 Jessup Township 11 Franklin Township 12 Forest Lake Township 13 14 * * * * 15 16 An OFFICIAL PUBLIC HEARING in the matter of the 17 NORTHERN TIER COALITION ZONING ORDINANCES AND ZONING MAPS 18 held on the 24th day of April, 2008, commencing at 7:00 19 p.m., at the Montrose Square Community Room, 15 Church 20 Street, Montrose, Pennsylvania. 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTED BY: Deirdre Shepherd 2 1 MR. HELFRICH: Call this hearing to order. I 2 am going to be conducting this hearing on behalf of 3 Bridgewater, Jessup, Franklin, and Forest Lake townships. 4 My name is Carson Helfrich and I am with Community Planning 5 and Management. I have a small consulting firm, and I work 6 out of my home down in Pike County at Lake Wallenpaupack. I 7 work with about 60 or 70 municipalities in Northeastern 8 Pennsylvania on comprehensive planning, subdivision 9 ordinances and zoning, and those types of local government 10 issues. 11 This hearing has actually been advertised as 12 the official public hearing for Bridgewater, Jessup, 13 Franklin, and Forest Lake townships for the proposed Zoning 14 Ordinance, and it's been advertised in four different 15 papers. It was advertised in the Montrose Pennysaver on 16 April 16th; the Susquehanna County, excuse me the 17 Susquehanna Independent on April 9th and April 16th; the 18 Binghamton Press on April 9th and April 16th; and the 19 Wyalusing Rocket on April 10th and April 17th. 20 This is one of the required hearings as 21 mandated by the Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code 22 that governs zoning throughout Pennsylvania. Following 23 these hearings, we actually have two more scheduled, one 24 next week at Silver Lake Township municipal building at 7 25 o'clock on Tuesday; and one on Wednesday at the Rush Ladies 3 1 Auxiliary building in Lawton, that's also at 7 o'clock. 2 The other thing that we will be doing is 3 advertising another public hearing along with the adoption 4 notice. We will be advertising additional hearings at each 5 municipality along with the adoption, hopefully, in the next 6 couple of months, so you can look for those ads also in the 7 newspapers. 8 So what we are going to do tonight is we are 9 going to do a two-step process. Since this is an official 10 public hearing and we do have a stenographer, so it's 11 important that when you speak I'd like you to state your 12 name and also the municipality where you are located so that 13 the stenographer can get the record. The other thing that's 14 important is that we can only have one person speaking at a 15 time because she can only get down that person speaking into 16 the record. 17 The first thing we are going to do is actually 18 take anybody that has any particular statements about the 19 Zoning Ordinance for the record. And once we finish with 20 any specific statements, we will open up the hearing for 21 questions and we will also all stick around after the 22 hearing if you want to take an additional look at the maps, 23 or if you have any questions or would like to talk to me or 24 any of the supervisors about after the hearing. 25 The first thing I'd like to do is get into the 4 1 record all of the supervisors that are here in attendance 2 tonight. 3 MR. MEAD: Chuck Mead, Bridgewater Township. 4 MS. WAY: Beverly Way, Bridgewater Township. 5 MR. DARROW: David Darrow, Franklin Township. 6 MR. DARROW: Bob Darrow, Franklin Township. 7 MR. ROSENKRANS: Harvey Rosenkrans, Franklin 8 Township. 9 MR. SMALL: Marvin Small, Forest Lake 10 Township. 11 MR. DONATO: Art Donato, Forest Lake Township. 12 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you. All right. With 13 that we will open it up for specific comments on the 14 Ordinance, and then following that anybody that has specific 15 comments, we will open it up for questions. Does anybody 16 have any specific comments about the Ordinance itself? 17 PUBLIC COMMENT: I have a couple of questions. 18 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. What I would like to do 19 is take the comments first, direct comments. Okay. 20 MR. PINKOWSKI: Frank Pinkowski, Forest Lake 21 Township. I think that the setback distance for the wind 22 turbines is a little excessive at 1500 feet. If you are 23 doing 1500 feet by air, that's quite a distance. If 24 anybody -- the way it reads is if anybody, any property 25 owner, who lives within 1500 feet of a wind turbine objects 5 1 to the wind turbine, it would not be allowed. 2 As you were reading yesterday in the Montrose 3 Independent, the high school is looking at possibly putting 4 up a wind turbine and it almost reaches, I don't know by 5 map, but it's close and when I hold a ruler up to it anybody 6 on the lake if they objected to it Montrose couldn't put up 7 a wind turbine. 8 It also singles out wind turbines. No other 9 thing has a height restriction, such as cell phone towers or 10 any other towers, just turbines. 11 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Other comments? 12 MR. FAMOLARI: My name is Gene Famolari. I 13 live in Jessup Township. I don't seem to have a supervisor 14 to comment to, but that's neither here nor there. I have 15 several inconsistencies that I have noticed in the Ordinance 16 in Jessup Township. Would you like me to address this as a 17 comment at present or as a question later? 18 MR. HELFRICH: You can make it as a comment or 19 if you want to as questions later or I can address them 20 afterwards. 21 MR. FAMOLARI: I will make a comment directly. 22 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 23 MR. FAMOLARI: In Jessup Township, the map, as 24 you showed, has a number of yellow areas designating 25 residential and the rest of it is rural-agricultural. In 6 1 the Ordinance, Section IV the matrix indicates that for 2 Jessup Township there is no residential, no village 3 commercial, no commercial-industrial, only 4 rural-agricultural; so there is an inconsistency between 5 page 1 of Article IV and the zoning map for Jessup Township. 6 I don't know which one applies. 7 MR. HELFRICH: Actually, the map is correct. 8 MR. FAMOLARI: The map is correct? 9 MR. HELFRICH: Right. That needs to be 10 corrected. 11 MR. FAMOLARI: On that basis, if the map is 12 correct, on that basis noting that area I live in is in the 13 midst of it, I have a question as to the rationale for 14 creating residential areas on large parcels that are 15 primarily agricultural for agricultural reserve. 16 There are a number of them in there. There is 17 nothing that distinguishes them. There is no high density. 18 There is nothing but one house on maybe 40 acres including 19 the area in which there are others between my farm, and I 20 have about 370 acres. One parcel of my farm is now 21 residential. It's only a ten-acre parcel, but it's now 22 residential as opposed to being part of the overall 23 rural-agricultural. 24 MR. HELFRICH: So what you are suggesting is 25 that those areas should be rural-agricultural. 7 1 MR. FAMOLARI: That is absolutely correct. 2 There are a large number of areas that are listed as 3 residential. I can see no rationale for their being so 4 listed, not from the use of land or from its proximity to 5 other areas that are already zoned rural-agricultural. 6 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Point taken. 7 MR. FAMOLARI: In general, and perhaps it has 8 to do with Pennsylvania law. I have raised a lot of things 9 in my life. The farm I now have once had cows. It has 10 fences and barbed wire fences close to the road. These are 11 called cow pastures in grazing. I now put horses on it. 12 All of a sudden I have gone from being a livestock operation 13 according to the ordinances to being a -- having a home 14 stable of some sort. 15 The rules are very different. The setbacks 16 are very different. Whether it's called a stable or corral 17 it doesn't necessarily correspond to a horse paddock or 18 fenced enclosure where horses graze or cows graze. Is there 19 a reason why those things are treated so differently? 20 MR. HELFRICH: This is statements at this 21 point. 22 MR. FAMOLARI: That's a statement. They are 23 treating equine activity extremely differently and much more 24 restrictively than you do farming activities in 25 rural-agricultural areas. 8 1 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 2 MR. FAMOLARI: The definition of a stable that 3 applies here doesn't apply to a building. It applies, in 4 fact, by your definition to a plot of land in which horses 5 graze and elsewhere in the document it says horses may graze 6 on pasture independent of those things. So it is unclear 7 which applies. 8 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. So we need to take a 9 look at that. 10 MR. FAMOLARI: As a statement I feel they 11 should not be terribly restricted at all, except for parcel 12 size and the number of horses on it. If you have a 13 residential area like you have in Montrose Borough with one 14 or two acres for horses, it's a pretty reasonable thing. If 15 you've got someone who has got say 30 or 40 acres devoted to 16 horses grazing around, it seems to me that that is a 17 different story. The regulations ought to allow for that, 18 particularly in the rural areas. Those are general 19 comments. 20 I have an inconsistency in terms for a 21 question in house setbacks. Again, on Table 601.5 B the 22 setback for a house is 50 feet from a road or from a 23 right-of-way. The Schedule of Development Standards, this 24 is page IV-9, it says 30 feet. I don't know which applies. 25 But I do know that in Jessup Township, if I 9 1 wander through the roads in some unscientific fashion, I 2 will see somewhere between 30 and 60 percent of the houses 3 there that are all with nonconforming status because they 4 were built close to older roads, closer than 50 feet, 5 possibly not closer than 30 feet. 6 It would seem reasonable not to have a 7 standard that makes nonconforming potentially a majority of 8 a township's existing houses. Most of them, like mine, 9 dating back to 1825. That's my statement. 10 I'd like some clarification and some action on 11 these things before we go to the voting on them or addendum 12 on them. 13 MR. HELFRICH: What we will be doing is taking 14 a look at all of these comments and addressing them through 15 the Northern Tier. 16 MR. FAMOLARI: How does a citizen engage in 17 that process since I don't have any supervisors here? 18 MR. HELFRICH: The Northern Tier, the next 19 meeting is on the third Thursday in May. 20 MR. FAMOLARI: I have been to some of those 21 meetings. They have a very tight schedule. My questions 22 are specific to one township. 23 MR. HELFRICH: I can say we are going address 24 all of the comments. I don't know that we have worked it 25 out exactly when the schedule will be, but we are going to 10 1 need to address all of these comments. 2 MR. FAMOLARI: Can a citizen be informed of 3 when that happens? 4 MR. HELFRICH: Sure. We can post that on the 5 website. 6 MR. FAMOLARI: I'd like to know that so I can 7 clarify my comments to those who are going to make 8 adjustments or make changes. 9 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 10 MR. WOOD: My name is Russ Wood. I am from 11 Bridgewater Township. I think what this gentleman is 12 talking about here is some excellent illustrations of the 13 difficulty in trying to micromanage people's lives in 14 regulations and details that perhaps are overdone or 15 overzealous. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 17 MR. WERT: Do you have to sit there somewhere? 18 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, please. 19 MR. WERT: I brought some comments I'd like to 20 have entered into the record. My name is Robert Wert. Here 21 is a copy for you. 22 (Whereupon a document was presented.) 23 I've got a number of concerns about this. I'm 24 going to give you copies of this and ask that they also be 25 given to the supervisors of each of the townships that are 11 1 involved. 2 First of all, let me point out that your 3 notice which was published in the newspaper, which most 4 people don't read as evidenced by the fact that there aren't 5 very many people here, is something that was a little bit 6 defective because it cited two websites as having the 7 Ordinance; but only one of them actually had the Ordinance 8 and that was the communityplanning.biz website. The other 9 one is the ntc-susq.org which had the Northern Tier 10 Coalition Comprehensive Plan. That website only had a 11 13-page portion of what's actually contained in the entire 12 proposed Zoning Ordinance. 13 The notice said that you could find the Zoning 14 Ordinance in both of those locations and you really 15 couldn't. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Did you find the Zoning 17 Ordinance? 18 MR. WERT: I did. It was not as stated in the 19 ad. 20 MR. HELFRICH: I think if you take a careful 21 look -- 22 MR. WERT: Excuse me, I'd like to go on. 23 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. That's fine. 24 MR. WERT: First of all, as I have indicated 25 in the written material I have given you, this is for the 12 1 benefit of the other folks that are here. The proposed 2 adoption of this is a dramatic and wide-sweeping change in 3 the regulation of land use in Susquehanna County and it 4 needs to receive a very significant period of time for 5 consideration. 6 As I think this gentleman was making a point 7 when I came in, I don't think that most of the citizenry in 8 this County when polled knew what was put here. I suspect 9 that it's only a minority, probably the people involved in 10 the planning process, the professional planners who get paid 11 for turning out these kinds of ordinances. 12 And if you look at the Ordinances, it applies, 13 apparently, to a number of the townships with the exception 14 of Silver Lake, which is the only township that seems to 15 have variation. The rest of the townships, all of the 16 written provisions of the Ordinances are cookie cutter. 17 They are exactly the same except for the districts that are 18 denoted and except for the map which makes up a great 19 portion of the Ordinance for that particular township. So 20 that means that everybody in the County is basically going 21 to be subject to the same regulation. 22 Now, there are some things that I have pointed 23 out here in terms of specific comments, but one I'd like to 24 point out is that your own planning document, which is the 25 Northern Tier document, contains in part a section which I 13 1 have attached to this paper as Exhibit A. I want to read 2 this to you because it is important for the audience that's 3 here. 4 "Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance 5 Compared to Zoning Ordinance. The subdivision and land 6 development ordinance (SALDO) provides standards for 7 dividing land and for residential and commercial development 8 projects ensuring the provision of adequate community 9 facilities such as roads, water supply and sewage disposal, 10 utilities, proper highway access, and storm water control. 11 The adoption of a SALDO by a local municipality is typically 12 far less controversial than adopting a zoning ordinance. 13 Regulating how land is divided and served by facilities is 14 not perceived by the public as nearly as intrusive as 15 zoning. In addition, most municipalities in the 16 Commonwealth that have not adopted a SALDO are governed by a 17 county ordinance. This is the case in Susquehanna County as 18 well. By adopting a SALDO, the local municipality is simply 19 shifting the responsibility from the County. Many 20 municipalities embarking on land use management first adopt 21 a SALDO, and then proceed to zoning." 22 "The adoption of zoning ordinances typically 23 follows a path of development." 24 I'd like to ask you what development is going 25 on in Susquehanna County that drives the need for the 14 1 adoption of zoning ordinances? I want to tell you that 2 these Ordinances are not only dramatic and sweeping, but 3 they will also affect the land value of every property owner 4 in this county where the Ordinance is adopted. 5 I live in a county, Chester County, where 6 these ordinances are in place. Let me tell you that the 7 environmental impact, engineering studies -- all of this is 8 contained in this paper -- that are required in the case of 9 development will be a tremendous financial burden to any 10 landowner and anyone who may come here seeking to develop a 11 business of any kind. 12 It is most likely that that will operate as a 13 disincentive for a county which is perhaps the poorest in 14 this Commonwealth according to the statistics that I have 15 seen. It does not have a significant infrastructure which 16 your own commissioners admit to be the case, which is one of 17 the reasons why you don't have business here and you are not 18 likely to. 19 With the imposition of this kind of a 20 bureaucratic superstructure on top of your land ownership 21 you will find that your uses of land -- which are 22 grandfathered, but conditionally in the proposed Ordinance 23 will perhaps be reduced significantly. 24 Now am I saying some that some regulation is 25 not necessary? No, I am not saying that. You probably 15 1 don't want a junkyard being built next door to your house if 2 it wasn't there when you built your house. You most likely 3 don't want an adult entertainment center next to your house 4 if you didn't have one there when you bought your house. 5 You would like to preserve the beauty of the 6 area. We all would. I would too. But I think we recognize 7 that there is a need for economic development in this 8 county. I think we recognize that perhaps for many people 9 who live here the most significant asset they have is their 10 real property. 11 This proposed Ordinance, and I encourage you 12 to read it in detail for yourself, will hamper you in terms 13 of the potential sale of your property; it will hamper you 14 in the future use of property. And even though the use of 15 your property is grandfathered; however, if you abandon that 16 use, if you try to alter that use in any significant way, 17 you will be prevented by these regulations from doing it 18 unless your property happens to be in the prescribed 19 district. 20 In addition to that, even if your use of 21 property is grandfathered, the regulation suggests very 22 strongly that in order to preserve that grandfathering that 23 you should go and have that property registered with the 24 zoning officer to recognize that purpose. 25 I suggest to you if any of you have experience 16 1 with some bureaucracies that their environments, they take 2 on a life of their own which justifies their existence. I 3 submit to you that you may find even that registration 4 process difficult; and if you do not register your property 5 for that use, somewhere downstream, when you come to sell it 6 with that use attached to it, or if a neighbor complains -- 7 these kinds of ordinances are often the subject of I'm going 8 get even with my neighbor. 9 I have represented a number people in my 10 county who are friends of mine who have been subject to 11 those very kinds of things where neighbors have gone and 12 complained. There's anonymity attached to those complaints, 13 so you don't know who made the complaint. The zoning 14 officer has very significant authorities. The penalties for 15 violating the zoning ordinance, once an order is issued, is 16 significant. 17 The cost of going through the hearing process 18 is on you; and if you are found to be responsible, you pay 19 the attorney's fees and costs and fines; but if you win, you 20 are not reimbursed for your expenses. 21 Now that's only a summary of what's in this 22 paper. I will be happy to give copies to anybody who wants 23 it. I suggest to you very strongly that you should go and 24 read this Ordinance. I am not suggesting, again, that there 25 not be some regulation. I am saying to you that this is a 17 1 Draconian step that is being taken by the terms of the 2 Northern Tier planning document is not even suggesting. 3 That document suggests an interim step. 4 If anybody wants to see the actual documents, 5 I've printed them off from the Internet and they are here in 6 these notes. Thank you. 7 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Mr. Wert, you're 8 representing the Susquehanna County Economic Development 9 Advisory Council? 10 MR. WERT: That is correct. 11 MR. HELFRICH: So this is their official 12 position? 13 MR. WERT: Yes it is. And it is also mine, 14 personally. 15 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Thank you. Other 16 statements? 17 MR. TAYLOR: I feel that it is very very ill 18 timed. We just went through the process of a -- 19 MR. HELFRICH: Excuse me, we just need your 20 name. 21 MR. TAYLOR: Jack Taylor, Bridgewater 22 Township. We just went through a primary process where this 23 could have been on the ballot for the members of the 24 community and the county to consider, or at least be made 25 aware of. 18 1 I just happened to be given a copy of the 2 notice three days ago. I have not read the Ordinance. I 3 was unaware of it. I'm a business owner in the middle of 4 Montrose. I'm a farm owner in Bridgewater Township. As it 5 sounds to me, if I decide that my property in the middle of 6 Montrose could be put to better use, I can't move my 7 business to my location in Bridgewater Township. So I have 8 a lot of problems with this and I feel that there is very 9 very little information in the hands of the average taxpayer 10 in the county about what's going on here, as is also evident 11 by the number of people in attendance. 12 MR. HELFRICH: Other comments? 13 MS. CLIFFORD: My name is Barbara Clifford and 14 I live in Montrose and Bridgewater and I haven't read the 15 Ordinance either, but I do feel that we need some 16 protection. I don't know whether zoning is the right way or 17 some other building ordinances, but I just don't want to 18 throw everything out because I really feel we need some 19 protection. 20 MR. HELFRICH: Other comments? Yes, ma'am. 21 MS. NEWHART: My name is Susan Newhart, 22 Franklin Township. Looking through this, I have a concern 23 about the large areas allowing one acre zoning for on-lot 24 and onsite septic and onsite water. 25 I bet many of you here have built a house. 19 1 You know how hard it is to perk; and on one acre I don't 2 know how you can have room for a footprint for a house, a 3 septic area, the state requires set aside septic area, and 4 then space for a well safely located from the septic. 5 I feel that this preponderance of one acre 6 zoning is going to encourage public sewage and public water; 7 and everywhere where that starts coming in, it leads 8 development and it directs development. This document 9 doesn't take into account the fact that if we do get that 10 influx of facilities, how it's going to appear because it's 11 all one acre, so I think it's a contradiction. 12 And you people who farm here or work here and 13 you know what our soils are like. I don't understand how we 14 can have one acre zoning with onsite water and onsite sewer 15 without developing a lot of the infrastructure. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you. More comments? 17 MR. FAMOLARI: If no one else wants to make a 18 comment, I will take a second shot at it. I want to thank 19 Bob Wert for what he put together. I'd say it's a rather 20 good and stronger and clearer statement than I was able to 21 give you. I tend to agree with this that it's extremely 22 Draconian the measures that are being proposed, and they 23 will impact all of our economic life, and the life of every 24 farmer in the community. He will find it very difficult to 25 do different things with his lands when he finds himself, as 20 1 I mentioned before, many of the, at least in Jessup 2 Township, probably the majority of home sites will be 3 nonconforming. That is a very strange way to write an 4 Ordinance, to make most of a township nonconforming. I 5 think it's going to lead to an awful lot of business for Bob 6 and some of the lawyers. 7 MR. WERT: Not for me. I don't practice here, 8 nor do I intend to compete. 9 MR. HELFRICH: One at time, please. 10 MR. FAMOLARI: It will. 11 MR. HELFRICH: Go ahead. 12 MR. FAMOLARI: My point is that it will lead 13 to a lot of litigation. I say this as a farmer and also as 14 a man who's developed property in townships and also against 15 townships and been able to win. It's a very costly process 16 to get the simple rights you thought you had as an owner of 17 land once a bureaucracy is installed. 18 I think we need something a little bit less 19 than this one-size-fits-all for everybody. You can do this 20 and I think you can do this in a number of ways. Bob 21 suggested some. That's a better process. In other cases 22 you simply say this is a rural area; therefore, the owner of 23 manure is not a nuisance. So you have taken out some simple 24 concerns that people have about what happens in a 25 rural-agricultural area, that you can't complain about it, 21 1 it's not a function of the zoning. 2 Same thing can be said about all the 3 complaints I made about setbacks. You have written all of 4 the setbacks as though you were creating new subdivisions 5 for highly dense residential areas. We may be 20 or 30 or 6 forever years away from getting there. 7 My second point goes along with what this 8 gentleman said. As I recall, when they first did a survey 9 for the Northern Tier on what people wanted a long time ago 10 -- and I participated and scored some of those survey 11 sheets -- in my township the answer to "Do you want zoning?" 12 is pretty much unclear to negative. When the question was 13 asked, "Do you want to pay for zoning?" the answer was very 14 clearly, "No." We, the citizens, who voted on a survey form 15 did not. 16 Since then, no one has gone back to the 17 townships to ascertain whether the people want anything 18 close to this degree of bureaucracy. And it will cost 19 money, not just for the citizens, but for the township. 20 Because every one of these nonconforming cases and other 21 issues that will arise through this zoning as we go through 22 this meaning that I, as a citizen landowner, will come to 23 the zoning board or involve my township people and we will 24 all go through a lengthy process of negotiation and time 25 consuming and expensive. Do we really need this? I don't 22 1 think so. 2 Is there a better way to get to it either by 3 the ways Mr. Wert suggested or by having a simple referendum 4 with a little bit of -- a lot of extra delineations by 5 township. Certain designations apply to certain townships. 6 Negativisms like this and others and a lot of simplification 7 would make this an easier thing to take and still provide 8 protection. 9 I really think it needs a bit more venting 10 with the public and a little more thinking about how are we 11 going live this, both as township supervisors and the 12 citizens who have to apply them. 13 MR. HELFRICH: Any other comments? 14 MR. WERT: I'd like to add. I think this lady 15 here with what she had to say, she's absolutely correct. 16 You don't want to create a very dense situation. I own a 17 number of properties here even though I don't live here. I 18 would hate to see it become like the Poconos are. I think 19 that's a path that will destroy the natural beauty that you 20 have. 21 I would suggest to you, however, that you do 22 need in this area some infrastructure in order to bring 23 business here. Your young people are leaving here. We all 24 know that. They don't stay here because there's not 25 employment. I don't think you are ever going to see another 23 1 Bendix plant, but there are answers to those kinds of 2 things. One of the things that's necessary is a friendly 3 environment from a regulatory standpoint for developing 4 business. 5 We have, and I have touched on this too, we 6 have very significant energy problems in this country. I 7 invite you to read the section of the regulation that deals 8 with electric generation using windmills. It's really 9 restrictive. 10 The government of Ed Rendell talks about 11 Pennsylvania helping with energy, but you don't see any of 12 that going on in Susquehanna County. It's just south of us. 13 We need to invite those types of things here too, to help 14 build the infrastructure so that we can get some business, 15 machine shops like the one that's down on Industrial Circle. 16 The gentleman down there sells all over the world. I've 17 been through the shop, it's fabulous. The gentleman over in 18 Hallstead whose starting the technical thing. This is all 19 being done by private individuals. 20 These kinds of regulations, if they are 21 enacted, and it becomes a we versus the bureaucrats kind of 22 an exercise, and it will, because I live in a county where 23 that exists. I have seen the farmers who have neighbors who 24 came and built Mc-mansions next to them complain about the 25 smell of manure. That's absolutely ridiculous. The cows 24 1 were there first. 2 So as the gentleman says, what we need is 3 something that's reasonable, something that is going to help 4 balance so that we don't become like the Poconos, that is 5 going to be welcoming in terms of business which we 6 desperately need, that's going to help with the energy 7 situation. 8 I just finished watching the national news. 9 They're talking about now the United States being lambasted 10 because we are doing ethanol with corn, and now they are 11 having riots in Mexico. It would be nice if we could stop 12 the illegal aliens from running across the border, but 13 that's another issue. 14 We've got lots of fallow farmland here. That 15 should be encouraged to be put to work to help us with our 16 energy issues. There's nothing in this proposed regulation 17 that addresses trying to encourage those kinds of things. 18 This needs to be a positive document, not a strong 19 regulatory, heavy document. 20 I believe the gentleman is correct and I have 21 suggested it and as the documents say, some interim planning 22 steps would be in order. Taking what a planner -- no 23 offense to you as a planner, sir -- taking what a planner 24 produces and provides in Chester County and other counties 25 like this and trying to it apply it here is not the right 25 1 way to go. I can tell you because I've lived with it 2 firsthand. 3 MR. HELFRICH: Other comments? Why don't we, 4 at this point, open it up to questions. One other thing, we 5 do have a Jessup Township supervisor here. Could you please 6 introduce yourself? 7 MR. DAVIS: I am Charlie Davis from Jessup 8 Township. 9 MR. HELFRICH: Questions? 10 MR. WOOD: Russell Wood from Bridgewater 11 Township. I'd like to know the history of the origin of all 12 of this. It seems to me that a document that is this 13 comprehensive is not something that's originated among the 14 local people. I'd kind of like to get a picture of where 15 this got started. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Sure. This actually got 17 started back about four years ago with the Northern Tier 18 Coalition Comprehensive Plan and that was adopted about 19 two years ago. Since that time we have been working as the 20 Northern Tier Coalition and I've met with individual 21 municipalities and actually gone over the document pretty 22 much page by page with the representatives of the Northern 23 Tier. Actually we have had -- how many public meetings have 24 we had in the past? 25 MR. MEAD: Four public information meetings. 26 1 MR. HELFRICH: We've had a number of public 2 meetings over the past couple of years. So this isn't 3 something that we just threw together and presented here. 4 MR. WOOD: So you are basically bringing this 5 document and these regulations from external sources and 6 presenting it? 7 MR. HELFRICH: Right. It is something I have 8 accumulated over the last 10 or 15 years working with rural 9 municipalities. We begin with something to take a look at, 10 pare it down, and try to make it meet. 11 MR. WOOD: That's why you people feel there's 12 a need for this kind of a document? 13 MR. TAYLOR: Jack Taylor. My question is, 14 Bridgewater Township we have two representatives here, 15 what's the position of the supervisors in the township? Do 16 they endorse this as our supervisors at this point? Or are 17 they asking what the taxpayers think and waiting for 18 feedback? 19 MS. WAY: We have had other meetings and -- 20 MR. TAYLOR: And nobody showed up. 21 MS. WAY: Right -- 22 MR. TAYLOR: Isn't that a clue that nobody 23 shows up? 24 MS. WAY: They were advertised, so why weren't 25 they there to ask questions? 27 1 MR. MEAD: Jack, you heard what he said. 2 These meetings were advertised in all the papers that he 3 talked about and all the public meetings were advertised in 4 the same papers. We don't know why the public did not come 5 forward. I know Barbara Clifford was at a couple of the 6 meetings and some of the other people. I can see some of 7 the people from those meetings. 8 What started this was a problem we had in 9 Bridgewater Township with several different issues. One 10 issue was the Pennfield plant. Pennfield, a company coming 11 into South Montrose, a residential district, which by the 12 way was a feed mill before. 13 MR. TAYLOR: Right. 14 MR. MEAD: The juvenile detention center that 15 was proposed to go out on Route 706 is driving some of this. 16 All of the feedback that we got at that time was very 17 negative on that. We were told at that time that we weren't 18 doing our job and that we needed planning in this area. 19 The county jail that went into Bridgewater 20 Township, that was another issue that really created a lot 21 of problems, a lot of negativism, I guess you would want to 22 say that. People were against that and because we did not 23 have any regulations it just went in. So those are just 24 some of the problems that started the process. 25 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. If that went in, what was 28 1 the process that kept the juvenile detention center out? 2 Apparently, one of the things, I think more of the onus 3 against the jail was that they didn't want to see it moved 4 to a remote location from the courthouse, not that it went 5 specifically in South Montrose or ended up in Bridgewater 6 Township. 7 MR. MEAD: It was both. 8 MR. TAYLOR: It was both, but how was that 9 unsuccessful; and yet, you were successful in heading off 10 the juvenile detention center on the other side of Montrose? 11 And now we say we need this document to back that up? If we 12 did it inhouse without this document successfully, and you 13 see how little people attend. 14 I believe that if people understood what was 15 on the docket here to be reviewed and considered and 16 adopted, they would be up in arms. I don't believe they 17 know. I have not been aware of this process and I don't 18 read the papers word for word, nor does anybody else. I'm 19 in business. I travel every day. None of my commissioners 20 ever mentioned it to me or my supervisors. 21 I know we have problems. We have problems 22 with abandoned properties, we have problems with this and 23 that and the other thing; but, they've been dealt with on a 24 case-by-case basis. 25 This is very broad sweeping and I have to say 29 1 at this point, again, if I would decide to move my business 2 to the middle of Montrose to allow for better use of that 3 land in the borough of Montrose to bring people to this area 4 and create a community back to the way it was when we had 5 businesses in town that were serving the people, not doctors 6 and lawyers, I can't move that business to my property and I 7 own 20 acres out there. 8 I should be able to put my construction yard, 9 it says construction yard, well that doesn't mean I can set 10 up an office and have people coming and going and do my 11 business out of that property. So at that point in time I'm 12 paying tax on a business that I can't use, a piece of 13 property that I can't use for the purpose I am currently 14 engaged in. 15 And if I should decide to turn it over, 16 admittedly to my family, there could be a possibility that 17 would preclude that from being able to be done because if I 18 do it, I would have to register it or get it under 19 grandfather. 20 I have dealt with a property that was 21 purchased under grandfather and it stinks. It costs 22 everybody money to clarify. We had that in Montrose with 23 the zoning in Montrose where they had divided a piece of 24 property on one deed for two different uses -- commercial 25 and residential -- because of a mistake. It took us a year 30 1 and a half of requests for clarification of the zoning 2 board. I can't imagine what it would take to do it now, 3 that was ten years ago. If this document goes in place it 4 would be even more invasive and more expensive. 5 Is this something that you as our supervisors 6 see as the only answer? Or is this the answer that you have 7 been presented? 8 MR. MEAD: I think it's a combination of both. 9 This is a first start. First of all, I'd like to thank 10 everybody for coming because this is the most we have had at 11 any meeting. 12 MR. TAYLOR: That should be a clue. Nobody 13 knows. 14 MR. MEAD: But Jack, it has been advertised. 15 It has been advertised very well. 16 MR. TAYLOR: It has been advertised according 17 to the book, but unfortunately... 18 MR. WERT: Nobody reads the classified ads. 19 In fact, Jack may be here because I called a friend of mine. 20 I think he might have called Jack. 21 With respect to the jail, let me tell you that 22 if you read the section dealing with confinement facilities, 23 it's very liberal. In fact, one of the things I've put in 24 this paper is a suggestion that it should be much more 25 stringent than it is. I am surprised at how liberal that 31 1 provision is for the very kinds of reasons that people are 2 talking about here. 3 I think, frankly, that rather than being led 4 by planners -- no offense again, they sell this stuff -- you 5 all need to sit down with the citizenry and work on 6 something. I think as the lady said and the gentleman back 7 there who is in real estate says, you do need some 8 regulation. I think that you need some regulation. 9 The city of Philadelphia has a zoning 10 ordinance. They can't deal with abandoned houses. So 11 you've got a Zoning Ordinance proposed here that isn't going 12 deal with the problems you got. You need to sit down and 13 talk about those problems, categorize them, and address 14 them. 15 That jail would probably have still been built 16 down there if you look at the regulation. I'd like to read 17 it to you. It's very, very liberal. It's nonspecific in 18 terms of any security devices or things like that. The 19 language is very general and it leaves it up to somebody 20 else's decision as to what specifically will be required. 21 Yet, I will tell you that specifically it has 22 got about six sections dealing with bed and breakfasts -- I 23 have owned one by the way -- but for hotels and lodging 24 facilities, there's two tiny paragraphs to regulate them. 25 It makes no sense. You need to develop your own Ordinance 32 1 not something somebody gives to you that they took out of 2 their computer. 3 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions? Somebody who 4 hasn't had a chance yet. 5 MR. PENNYPACKER: Keith Pennypacker. I would 6 like to know who -- or maybe this was made at McDonald's by 7 a kid coloring -- this highlighted area here, which I own 8 approximately one quarter of, how do they determine that 9 that one should be residential, being that I have had a 10 commercial business there for ten years? Now they want it 11 residential. 12 MR. HELFRICH: That was done working with the 13 supervisors. If you could let us know which the specific 14 property is -- 15 MR. FAMOLARI: The supervisors are here. 16 Could you answer the question? 17 MR. HELFRICH: -- we could take another look at 18 it. 19 MR. PENNYPACKER: Can you answer that? 20 MR. DAVIS: I just came in in January, so this 21 is pretty new to me. 22 MR. HELFRICH: If I could see you after the 23 meeting and you could show me the specific property, I could 24 bring it up with the supervisors. 25 MR. PENNYPACKER: All right. I really want an 33 1 answer on that. I'm out in the middle of nowhere. I have a 2 commercial business there. Everybody in county knows me; 3 and if not, now you do. Why did you pick my property? 4 MR. HELFRICH: That's a question we will need 5 to -- 6 MR. DAVIS: Can I say something? 7 MR. HELFRICH: Sure. 8 MR. DAVIS: It's a mistake and an oversight 9 because as far as I know places were to be put on the map 10 and apparently Denny or Bruce who were doing that, it was an 11 oversight and I'm sure that that would be corrected. 12 MR. PENNYPACKER: My goal in life is -- I am 13 getting older just like you. I want to sell this whole 14 shooting match as a business. I don't want it grandfathered 15 and then I can't sell it? That's a bunch of crap. 16 MR. DAVIS: I came from an area that had 17 zoning for years and I know of many places that were 18 grandfathered in and they had not a major -- 19 MR. PENNYPACKER: I had one before that was 20 grandfathered to me and when I sold it I took a big hosing 21 because I couldn't transfer it. I had a commercial 22 building, a duplex that was grandfathered to me that I had 23 to sell as a single-family unit and convert it back that 24 way. It cost me thousands of dollars. I don't want it to 25 happen again because somebody decides to color my property 34 1 into the map. 2 MR. DAVIS: Sure. 3 MR. HELFRICH: I will take a look at that 4 after the meeting. Any other questions? 5 MR. TAYLOR: Yes. What's the schedule? This 6 is the third meeting of four; what is your proposed schedule 7 of adoption? 8 MR. HELFRICH: We have no specific schedule of 9 adoption. This is based on us addressing the comments that 10 we get at the public hearings. At this point, it would be 11 at least two or three months at the best, or the worst, 12 depending on how you look at it. 13 MR. WERT: I'd like to make a suggestion. I'd 14 like to suggest that the township supervisors -- by the way, 15 I know that I am from away, but I own a lot of property 16 here. I've spent a couple of years as a township 17 supervisor. 18 A lot of times the people who come to the 19 hearings -- no offense to the folks that are here -- you all 20 probably know this, they are usually always the same folks. 21 And they are usually the ones with some axe to grind and 22 they're not trying to run their farm or raise their family. 23 They are trusting you to take care of them and not visit 24 something. 25 I suggest you try to get some leaders in each 35 1 of your townships and some people who are part of the 2 community, people who maybe don't come to your meetings, sit 3 down and do a planning. You may be further down the road. 4 My father who was a machinist used to say if a thing is 5 worth doing, it's worth doing right. I don't think this is 6 right. 7 I don't think that most of you really have 8 had, no offense, a great deal of input into this to 9 customize this for your townships and your citizenry. I 10 think what you are hearing here tonight is that needs to be 11 done. No offense to him again, put the planner aside. 12 We've got word processing equipment these days. It's easy 13 to change this stuff. Make him work to do what you want 14 done, not what he feeds you. 15 No offense to you, but I know how this works. 16 We've got a planner in our township. He's been there for 17 30 years. He comes in and tells the board what they ought 18 to do. 19 MR. HELFRICH: Just to correct that, that's 20 not how this process works. Does anybody feel that that is 21 how this process works? 22 MR. MEAD: I can speak for Bridgewater. In 23 Bridgewater we had a planning advisory committee. We did 24 not even set up a planning commission. We just had people 25 who volunteered to serve on the planning advisory committee. 36 1 MR. WERT: Where was Jack Taylor on this? 2 MR. TAYLOR: I never knew that that even 3 existed. 4 MR. WERT: No offense, but if he had been part 5 of the normal group that comes to your township meetings, 6 that's one of my points because you're only going to hear 7 one thing from those folks. 8 MS. WAY: It wasn't. We don't get people to 9 come to our meetings either. 10 MR. HELFRICH: Do we have another question? 11 MS. CLIFFORD: I was just thinking, is it 12 allowed to have a business where you reside? 13 MR. HELFRICH: Sure. The home occupations, 14 yes. 15 MR. WERT: Except read the section on home 16 occupations. It's very limited. 17 MR. HELFRICH: The other thing you have to do 18 is look at the Ordinance in the rural-agricultural district. 19 There's a wide variety of uses that are allowed in that 20 district. 21 MR. TAYLOR: It specifically says that 22 construction yard not business -- 23 MR. WERT: A lot of people depend on home 24 business in this region. Read the sections on home business 25 and see if it suits you. I submit to you that you will find 37 1 it restrictive. 2 MS. CLIFFORD: From the meetings that I have 3 attended over the years, when this first started, most of 4 the people who have attended love their land and love this 5 area because it's rural. People who have moved here moved 6 here because of that also, and they came to the meetings 7 because they wanted to make sure that this area would stay 8 relatively like they wanted. 9 I think that they felt they wanted some 10 protection and those issues that came up showed that we do; 11 otherwise, you would get a whole crowd of people bombarding 12 the supervisors. 13 MR. TAYLOR: High density. I don't think 14 there is any argument that we need protection. I don't 15 think anyone in this room feels that we can let it go. The 16 Poconos is a good example of when bad things turn worse. I 17 think we need to take at least one step back and have more 18 people involved or at least understand what they are 19 considering. That's a simple request. 20 MS. CLIFFORD: I remember the point that I 21 wanted to make is that if we have businesses that we have 22 some sort of ordinance about them, like their size, what 23 they are or parking or something. 24 MR. HELFRICH: Any questions? Anybody who 25 hadn't had a chance yet? 38 1 MR. SCHWAB: My name is Richard Schwab. I am 2 from Liberty Township, so that makes me an outlander 3 tonight. The notice I saw in the paper indicated that 4 anybody from any of the ten townships is welcome. 5 MR. MEAD: Absolutely. 6 MR. HELFRICH: Absolutely. 7 MR. SCHWAB: My question is similar to that of 8 this gentleman over here. I looked at the zoning map online 9 last night after I read the newspaper article. I have 54 10 acres of land and guess what, I am residential. I've got 20 11 acres of red pine, 10 acres of meadows and the rest of it is 12 hardwoods. 13 I'm a retired forester and I intend to 14 practice forestry. I don't want residential land. What is 15 the current practice or procedure that I have to go through 16 to get my property back into...? 17 MR. HELFRICH: It has not yet been adopted. 18 MR. SCHWAB: Do I go to my township? 19 MR. HELFRICH: I would suggest that you talk 20 to the township supervisors. And again, I will stick around 21 afterwards. Show me on the map and I will make sure that 22 they see that. Forestry is allowed in all districts. 23 MR. SCHWAB: I realize that. Originally I am 24 from New York State which can out-regulate Pennsylvania 25 hands down. New York State went through a similar, a lot of 39 1 the towns went through similar zoning processes. What 2 happened up there is when they designated residential areas 3 they subsequently -- 5, 10, or 15 years down the road said 4 you have no right to practice forestry, you're in a 5 residential area. 6 MR. HELFRICH: In Pennsylvania there is 7 actually part of the planning code that mandates that 8 forestry be permitted in every zoning district. 9 MR. SCHWAB: There is a right to practice 10 forestry? 11 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. That is mandated by the 12 Commonwealth. 13 MR. WERT: Although sir, even though you can 14 practice it, if your concern is passing on your land that 15 way, as long as it's zoned residential it can be used for 16 that. 17 I'm not here to advertise lawyers because I 18 don't practice in this region. I'm not here for anything 19 like that. You can go to a lawyer and place deed 20 restrictions on the property or you can put it into a 21 conservancy. You are right, the use can change down the 22 road. 23 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions? 24 MS. NEWHART: Where do we get a map? 25 MR. HELFRICH: The maps are all up on the 40 1 front of the table and they are all on the Internet. 2 MS. NEWHART: I'd like to say that we've been 3 coming to these meetings sporadically because we have always 4 supported this idea and we still do. 5 We have had the opportunity or misfortune to 6 move around the country a number of times; and four 7 different times we have moved into a rural area, and 8 five years later it was overwhelmed with subdivisions and 9 shopping centers. And when it starts it happens so fast. 10 It is out of control. People don't think it could happen 11 here because there's no jobs, but people don't move here for 12 jobs. They move here for lifestyle. 13 We saw the change after the 9/11 when a lot of 14 people came in, and people are still coming in, young 15 retirees. And it chops up the farmland and so someone's 16 hundred acres gets divided up into one acre lots. And 17 pretty soon it's not our nature and character here. I would 18 really want you to pursue a Zoning Ordinance. I really want 19 you to do it so it doesn't drive infrastructure and we can 20 stay rural. 21 MR. HELFRICH: Anymore questions? 22 MR. WOOD: I just have a comment. I think 23 nationally readership in terms of newspapers and that kind 24 of thing is on a severe decline. Perhaps it might be wise 25 for you folks to come up with more technological and 41 1 creative ways to communicate with the people who live in 2 this area so that we do know what's going on, we know what 3 you are thinking about, what you are proposing, all of these 4 kinds of things that are happening. It would be really 5 helpful for you to be able to do that. 6 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, sir. Can we have your 7 name? 8 MR. WAMBOLD: Lloyd Wambold, outside 9 Middletown Township. I've got a comment to the people who 10 are here. I think the reason you don't see the people here 11 is they don't have a clue what this Zoning Ordinance is 12 going to do to them. They don't have a clue what this is 13 going to do to them, that's what the problem is. They see 14 zoning meeting, so what, ain't going to effect me. They 15 don't know what's going to happen down the road. 16 MR. FAMOLARI: My turn now. I want to defer, 17 he wants to say something. 18 MR. DAVIS: My thoughts are that everybody is 19 saying that people don't know. Believe me, I'm not 20 supporting this to hurt anybody. That is not my intention 21 but the thing is we have a township meeting once a month. 22 It's the same night it's always been, same time. We're 23 lucky if we have two people come to those meetings. 24 I am new. I just started in January. I was 25 kind of surprised and disappointed that there's not more 42 1 community input into the meetings. Every meeting since 2 January, I know zoning and all of these things have come up 3 because there has been quite a bit of running and paperwork 4 and everything for the supervisors as well. I think some of 5 people need to take a little more interest in their 6 community and come to some of the township meetings. 7 MR. FAMOLARI: Can I make my comment now? I 8 want to follow up on that. I don't know you. You are one 9 of the few supervisors I don't know, having lived in your 10 township for quite a while. You are new, yes. I've gone to 11 a lot of those meetings. I haven't gone to any this year. 12 There have only been a few this year. 13 MR. DAVIS: Right. 14 MR. FAMOLARI: I've gone to them on a number 15 of ordinance issues including cell towers and others on 16 sewage and other things. When I speak to them, I find that 17 Denny and Bruce aren't 100 percent aware of what they are 18 signing up for. No disrespect, but there is a lot of 19 paperwork that is hard to keep track of. I also find that 20 there is nobody else in the township who's read the stuff. 21 Have you read all of this? 22 MR. DAVIS: A lot of it. 23 MR. FAMOLARI: Have you read it all? 24 MR. DAVIS: No, maybe not all of it. 25 MR. FAMOLARI: Really to be honest about it, 43 1 most of you have not read all of it in great depth. One or 2 two of you have read pieces of it. None of you have asked 3 for citizen input. 4 I've gone to those meetings and I've been told 5 by another supervisor to go to more meetings of NTC. Which 6 ones are going to address which ones? 7 It is very hard as a citizen of Jessup 8 Township to get involved and engaged into that group so that 9 I can offer advice. When I have, and it's been specific on 10 ordinances, usually they will say wait until we have it. 11 Well now you have got it. So now I want to talk to it. I 12 will be happy to sit in on any meeting within that township 13 if you give me the chance to do it. 14 MR. DAVIS: Sure. 15 MR. FAMOLARI: I would suggest to you and the 16 other township supervisors that when you go through this 17 process, rather than sit by yourselves with a few other 18 people, why don't you get, by induction, a number of people 19 from your township to help you figure out whether or not the 20 specifics of this broad-brush, one-size-fits-all ordinance 21 for all the townships except Silver Lake really fits your 22 township? 23 It might well for you because you are working 24 on it. I know it doesn't fit Jessup. I just told you that 25 probably half the township houses are going to become 44 1 nonconforming and that's insane. We are going to end up 2 with lawsuits down the kazoo because people are going to 3 fight a township. We need to have some discussion on that. 4 We need to have some discussion on the issues 5 I've raised before about equine as opposed to cow 6 management. We are in a rural area. A lot of the people 7 come to this not to have one acre zoning, but to be able to 8 run their horses or do other things that fit. You want that 9 kind development as opposed to the other kind. You want to 10 make it friendly for that. You want to minimize the 11 regulations. 12 A smaller, simpler document will both make it 13 easier for your citizens to understand it and for you to 14 regulate, control, and change it and for other people to 15 come in and adapt to it. It will be better for us all. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Any other questions? Go ahead 17 Dave. 18 MR. DARROW: I would just like to make a 19 comment, a general comment here in response to Mr. Wert. It 20 was not advertised just in the classified ads. There were 21 several big ads in The Mulligan's -- 22 MR. WERT: I get the Independent mailed to me, 23 so I apologize. 24 MR. DAVIS: Okay. 25 MR. WERT: As the gentlemen from Jessup said 45 1 and I have mentioned, this is not unusual the attendance at 2 township meetings. I told you I was a supervisor. What 3 happens is if you poll the citizenry in your township, they 4 would tell you that they are trusting you -- and I am not 5 suggesting that you are not meeting that obligation -- but 6 they are trusting you to not do something to them. 7 MR. DARROW: I would also like to say, in all 8 fairness, we asked Larry and Susan Newhart to help us with 9 the map. They came to one meeting. We've asked several 10 people to be on planning commissions. We got several no's. 11 We finally got three people to agree to it. We have yet to 12 find two people to be on the zoning hearing board. 13 MR. WERT: Let me say this to you, sir. I am 14 not disagreeing with you because I do volunteer work. I've 15 run our town watch for 22 years. We don't have a police 16 force in our town. We rely on state police. They are much 17 better at Gibson over here. 18 I spent -- and I am not trying to tell you I'm 19 a big deal, I'm a lawyer and I practiced a lot in the 20 courtroom. I spent two and half days going through this 21 document. All I came up with was these papers. I'm sure if 22 I spent a lot more time -- the point is, as the gentleman 23 says, it's not the kind of thing that requires a cursory 24 reading. 25 And even though I've made some comments, I 46 1 can't put myself in your shoes here. I really looked at it 2 from the perspective of wanting to help the county from a 3 business standpoint; not the malls, but the kind of 4 businesses here like the machine shop or the professionals 5 who come here and work on the Internet and contribute to 6 your economy. 7 You are losing your young folks. If the older 8 people are the only ones around here, the towns are going 9 die. And it's a shame because this is a piece of history. 10 It really is a living history and it's not being treated 11 that way. And you do need help with that. 12 You have a tough job. I know because I did it 13 for a few years. I will tell you this, and I am no big 14 deal. I own a number of properties here, but I don't vote 15 here. I am willing to work with any of you if you want 16 help. I'm not trying to practice law. I'm sure there are 17 people in this room who would love to sit down with me and 18 spend time. It's hard to get volunteers. You are 19 absolutely right. It's very hard. Go talk to the fire 20 company. They'll tell you that. 21 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, sir. 22 MR. TAYLOR: I have a question for Bridgewater 23 Township. I am not sure of the exact head count of 24 taxpaying households in your township. Do you have a rough 25 number on that? 47 1 MR. MEAD: Taxpaying households? 2 MR. TAYLOR: Of households. 3 MR. MEAD: About 1200, roughly. 4 MR. TAYLOR: So we are talking about a budget 5 of maybe three or four hundred dollars to do a direct 6 mailing? For a postcard mailing? Would the township 7 consider a direct mailing approach to informing their 8 taxpaying households that this is in the works? 9 MS. WAY: The newsletters just went out in the 10 taxes. It was in the newsletter. 11 MR. TAYLOR: I'm talking about something 12 specifically geared to this subject because when the 13 taxpayer envelope gets opened, you know what gets looked at. 14 You know, the bill gets paid and it goes away. 15 So I'm asking if there's $400 in the budget to 16 consider because I would certainly come and ask to have that 17 put on the agenda for discussion at a meeting to consider a 18 direct mailing. Because I firmly believe that very few 19 people in the township truly understand the impact that this 20 has the potential to put on their property ownership. 21 I'm not talking about the land. I'm talking 22 about their individual rights as property owners. The land 23 is the land. It is what it is. It will evolve as it 24 evolves. And yes, we will have some control over it. I am 25 talking about the land as they live on it and their use of 48 1 it that they pay tax for. 2 It seems like a good issue to give 3 consideration to and then if you get no response they get 4 what they deserve, and that's a poor mentality. I would 5 like to ask that that be given consideration. 6 MR. MEAD: Let me just state that when we did 7 the survey for the Comprehensive Plan, Bridgewater Township 8 probably had the lowest response of any of the townships. 9 MR. TAYLOR: How many people in the township 10 do you think understand the concept of a comprehensive plan? 11 MR. MEAD: It was a survey, Jack. All they 12 had to do was answer the survey. That's all they had to do. 13 We had a very poor turnout. 14 MR. TAYLOR: I understand that. Many people 15 don't understand that what they answered led to this. 16 MS. WAY: They should have asked. 17 MR. MEAD: That was for the Comprehensive 18 Plan. 19 MR. WOOD: Is it possible that no response was 20 a negative response? 21 MR. TAYLOR: They want it to stay the way it 22 is? 23 MR. MEAD: Or no response was a positive 24 response? You can argue that either way. 25 MR. HELFRICH: Do we have anything else 49 1 specific on the Zoning Ordinance? We can certainly continue 2 this after the hearing. 3 MR. WOOD: I have a question on the gas 4 leasing in Bridgewater Township since that is obviously a 5 big deal in what's going on here. How does that fit in? 6 MR. HELFRICH: Mineral extraction is permitted 7 in all of the RA district, which is 95 percent. 8 MR. WOOD: It's a condition use. 9 MR. HELFRICH: It's a conditional use if it's 10 over a certain size. 11 MR. WOOD: No. It's a conditional use which 12 means you have to go through the planning or zoning process 13 if you have a gas drilling event of any kind. 14 MR. WERT: That's true in the RA and the 15 commercial district. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Right. 17 MR. WERT: It's also not permitted, but you 18 can process gas in the RA commercial district, and I found 19 that interesting. 20 MR. HELFRICH: No wait. If you take a look at 21 page 5 of that handout. Okay on the right side it says... 22 Well, on the left side it says, "Mineral extraction" about 23 halfway down under "Principal Permitted Uses" under "small 24 license/small permit." 25 MR. WOOD: That's not oil and gas. 50 1 MR. HELFRICH: I know, but let me just go 2 through this whole thing because mineral extraction 3 generally, that's the quarry operation. It is a conditional 4 use on the right side and it does allow for gas exploration, 5 drilling or extraction in the RA district, as well as 6 mineral processing. And it is a conditional use, correct. 7 MR. WOOD: So that seems subject to the 8 bureaucracy. 9 MR. HELFRICH: When you say bureaucracy, what 10 it means is it goes to the local planning commission; and 11 the reason we did this was so that neighbors have the 12 opportunity to know what's going on. There would be a 13 public hearing and the neighbors and anybody else would have 14 the opportunity to make statements. If it meets the 15 standards, it has to be approved. 16 MR. WERT: Let me read the section to you, if 17 I may, because the point you raise is important and it's 18 possible, depending your view, that the gas revenue could be 19 important to lots of people in this region. 20 "Section 825.3 Mineral Extraction Use 21 Classification; Mineral Processing Separate Use." 22 Now that last verbiage, I think it's a mistake 23 because it doesn't make sense in the context. 24 "Mineral extraction shall be permitted only in 25 the RA District..." 51 1 The word following "Mineral Extraction as a 2 Conditional Use." Item, sub. 3: "Any oil or gas 3 exploration, drilling or extraction." 4 So it's a conditional use. The gentleman is 5 correct. 6 MR. HELFRICH: That's just what I said. 7 MR. WERT: It's not permitted in the 8 commercial area at all, but you can process gas in the RA 9 and commercial areas. I don't know what that does to 10 everybody else who has signed a gas lease. 11 Now the gas people do accumulate pockets, so 12 you could get accumulated; but if you're not where they can 13 drill, you are up the creek. 14 MR. WOOD: Just one real world example, a 15 property owner in Dimock Township, which doesn't fit into 16 the Northern Tier, has ten drilling permits on his property. 17 Ten times he has to go before this zoning commission with 18 all of his documents and all of his plans and all of the 19 drawings. Ten times. 20 MR. HELFRICH: Were they all developed at the 21 same time? 22 MR. WOOD: No. It's a series of permits that 23 have come out of the last three or four months. 24 MR. HELFRICH: What you are suggesting is that 25 they should be a principal permitted use. 52 1 MR. WOOD: Recognize the reality of this, the 2 gas play here is big deal and it's going to affect everybody 3 who is a property owner of more than ten acres. 4 MR. WERT: Why should the bureaucracy stand in 5 the way as long as it's not unsightly? 6 MR. WOOD: And the state regulations, as you 7 say, DER govern this so it would be nice to know where all 8 of these locations are going to be, but it's going to be 9 pretty obvious when you are driving down the street and they 10 are putting in a drilling pad on the neighbor's property in 11 back of you. 12 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions or comments? 13 MS. CLIFFORD: On the gas issue, I'm concerned 14 about our aquifer. I'm concerned that maybe my neighbor 15 might have signed a lease allowing all of their mineral 16 rights to include their water. If I say, "No, you can't 17 take my water under my land," and if they take it from the 18 land next to me they are going to draw it out from me. I 19 think this world is going to be worried about our water. I 20 think we shouldn't allow our water to be sold out of the 21 state, personally. 22 MR. HELFRICH: Any other questions or 23 comments? 24 MR. TAYLOR: This is very interesting that the 25 gas leases should come up because in speaking with Rick 53 1 Kamansky the gas companies are offering to take care of the 2 area impacted, but the rollback will affect your entire 3 property. That is the current position that the 4 commissioners are intent on adopting. 5 These people have large acres in Clean and 6 Green, it's not just going to be the area of the drilling, 7 it will be their entire property. And that is the position 8 now in some counties to the west, apparently, as soon as you 9 sign the lease. 10 That is what's going on, so there's very big 11 concerns about all of this; but this seems to be a little 12 broad sweeping for where we stand at this point. 13 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions or comments? 14 (Whereupon no questions or comments were 15 offered.) 16 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. We appreciate you all 17 coming. We obviously will be having some more hearings and 18 we've got the two next week and we will be taking a look at 19 all of these comments. All right. Thanks. And we will be 20 sticking around for a little bit here. 21 (Whereupon the hearing was adjourned at 8:09 22 p.m.) 23 24 25