1 Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania 2 Northern Tier Coalition Comprehensive Plan 3 Zoning Map and Zoning Ordinance 4 Public Meeting and Hearing 5 6 * * * * 7 8 Silver Lake Township 9 Liberty Township 10 11 * * * * 12 13 An OFFICIAL PUBLIC MEETING in the matter of the 14 SILVER LAKE PLANNING COMMISSION; and an OFFICIAL PUBLIC 15 HEARING in the matter of the SILVER LAKE TOWNSHIP ZONING 16 ORDINANCE AND MAP and the LIBERTY TOWNSHIP ZONING ORDINANCE 17 AND MAP; held on the 29th day of April, 2008, commencing at 18 7:00 p.m., at the Silver Lake Township Building, John C. 19 McNamara Drive, Silver Lake, Pennsylvania. 20 21 22 23 24 25 REPORTED BY: Deirdre Shepherd 2 1 MR. HELFRICH: Call this to order. My name is 2 Carson Helfrich and I am with Community Planning and 3 Management of Paupack, Pennsylvania. I've been working with 4 the Northern Tier Coalition for the last four or five years 5 at this point on the Comprehensive Plan and the Zoning 6 Ordinance. 7 What we are going to be doing tonight, this is 8 an advertised public meeting tonight with the Silver Lake 9 Township Planning Commission, and it's also the public 10 hearing before the Silver Lake Township Board of Supervisors 11 and the Liberty Township Board of Supervisors. This is all 12 required by the Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code. 13 In one second Tom Swan is going to give us a 14 little bit of an overview of how we've gotten to this point, 15 then I am going to ask the Silver Lake Planning Commission 16 and Supervisors, and the Liberty Supervisors to introduce 17 themselves to get on the record the attendance from each 18 group. Then we will actually open the meeting and hearing 19 for questions and comments. With that I will turn it over 20 to Supervisor Swan. 21 MR. SWAN: In 2001, LTAP came out with a 22 course at Shadowbrook in regards to open spaces and land 23 preservation. There was five townships. There was Forest 24 Lake, Liberty, Franklin, Silver Lake, and Choconut. 25 We went to the seminar and we completed the 3 1 seminar. When we completed the seminar, we all thought it 2 was a great idea, so we brainstormed a little bit and we 3 said let's do something jointly instead of singly; so we 4 formed the Northern Tier Coalition. 5 Once we formed the Northern Tier Coalition, 6 there were seven other townships that called us and wanted 7 to know if they could join with us, which they did. When it 8 got to 12, we cut if off because we thought we had enough. 9 Once we got into the Comprehensive Plan, the 10 Rose Conservancy in Silver Lake Township had Cornell 11 University, led by Dr. David Gross and some coed students, 12 and they were just finishing up with Rose Conservancy, so 13 the Rose Conservancy introduced us to Dr. David Gross. We 14 met a couple times. 15 Then the students, there was 20 students, we 16 worked with them for a year and that's how we started our 17 joint Comprehensive Plan. It was very good. The students 18 went door-to-door. We chartered a bus and went around to 19 all of the townships and looked at the needs and everything, 20 and it really worked out very well. 21 After that, when Cornell University had 22 completed their work, we went on and finished our 23 Comprehensive Plan. We started this whole thing in 2001. 24 We finished our Comprehensive Plan in probably 2005, 25 somewhere in that neighborhood. 4 1 Then once we completed the Comprehensive Plan, 2 we started -- continued to talk and we thought let's take a 3 look at multi-municipal zoning, which we did. And we've had 4 several meetings, it's been a lot of hard work, and we've 5 got to the point we are tonight. 6 I think one thing, the greatest thing we got 7 out of this was when we went to multi-municipal townships, 8 we can't believe the togetherness we've created. Choconut 9 and Silver Lake, we share equipment. We're not trying to 10 buy equipment that we would use just by ourselves. We're 11 sharing equipment and it's really working out fine. 12 The Supervisors, we've gotten to know each 13 other great. I think it's a great adventure. I think it 14 has really worked well. So that's the brief history of 15 where we are today. I will turn it over to Carson. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you, Tom. I guess with 17 that what I'd like to do is ask the Silver Lake Township 18 Planning Commission members to introduce themselves and 19 identify as a member of the Planning Commission. 20 MR. SODON: Bud Sodon, Chairperson of the 21 Planning Commission. 22 MS. BOUMAN: Kate Bouman. 23 MR. WHITMORE: Steve Whitmore. 24 MR. GARDNER: Brian Gardner. 25 MR. DERHAM: Jerry Derham. 5 1 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you. Anybody else from 2 the Planning Commission? Okay, thank you. And then the 3 Silver Lake Township Supervisors. 4 MS. PAYNE: Sandy Payne. 5 MR. DUGAN: Terry Dugan. 6 MR. SWAN: Tom Swan. 7 MR. HELFRICH: And the Liberty Township 8 Supervisors. 9 MR. PLEVINSKY: Ted Plevinsky. 10 MR. LINDSEY: Jim Lindsey. 11 MR. GOODRICH: Bill Goodrich. 12 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you. 13 I also just want to note for the record that 14 this meeting, the Silver Lake Planning Commission, and the 15 hearing before the two Boards of Supervisors was advertised 16 in the legal sections of the Susquehanna Independent on 17 April 9th and April 16th; the Binghamton Press on April 9th 18 and April 16th; the Wyalusing Rocket on April 10th and 19 April 17th; and there was also a display ad in the Montrose 20 Pennysaver on April 16th. 21 At this point everybody should have a copy 22 of the handouts that were provided tonight; if not, they are 23 up here. There are two different ones: One for Silver Lake 24 Township, and also one for the general Northern Tier 25 Coalition. So are you folks all from Silver Lake? 6 1 MR. HELFRICH: Gentleman in the back? Okay. 2 Thank you. 3 What we have tried to do with the Northern 4 Tier Coalition Zoning Ordinance is in the case of Silver 5 Lake Township and Liberty Township, we've only really laid 6 out two zoning districts. One of the chief advantages of 7 working together with all of the 12 municipalities is that 8 we can share the different zoning uses around the 12 9 municipalities. 10 So again, in Silver Lake Township and Liberty 11 Township we have laid out residential districts and 12 rural-agricultural districts and they coincide with the 13 district designations that are in those handouts. You will 14 see that in the rural-agricultural district, which is the 15 brown color on the two maps, comprises the vast majority of 16 the two townships. 17 You will see in that handout that there's a 18 wide variety of uses permitted in the rural-agricultural 19 district. What the Coalition has attempted to do is provide 20 ample opportunity for all landowners to get adequate use out 21 of their property. The residential districts are designed 22 to afford protection to existing residential neighborhoods 23 and areas that may be anticipated to be residential in the 24 future. 25 One of the reasons that we are having this 7 1 hearing tonight is to take public comments on the Ordinance 2 and the maps. So if you have any comments about the maps, 3 please feel free to bring those forward here tonight. 4 So what I would like to ask you to do is 5 anybody who has a question or comment, we are taking a 6 stenographic record tonight and to help Deirdre out, if you 7 could please stand and state your name and also the 8 municipality where you reside, and then either provide your 9 comment or ask your question. What we are going to need to 10 do is go one person at a time so that she can get it on the 11 record. 12 Okay, with that we will open it up to 13 questions and comments. Yes, ma'am. 14 MS. EVERITT: My name is Carol Everitt. 15 MR. HELFRICH: In which township? 16 MS. EVERITT: In Silver Lake Township. These, 17 we only have the two districts, the residential and the 18 rural-agricultural. I wondered what these overlay districts 19 are, the floodplain overlay and the lake overlay district; 20 how that affects the residential and the rural-agricultural? 21 MR. HELFRICH: In terms of the floodplain 22 overlay district, a good example is in Liberty Township 23 along Snake Creek. If you take look at the map, there's a 24 certain area that's shown as floodplain and those are mapped 25 by the Federal Government. 8 1 So in any of that floodplain area you are 2 still allowed to do the uses that are shown in the table; 3 but you have to comply with the floodplain standards, which 4 in most cases is that you have to elevate above the hundred 5 year flood elevation. 6 In terms of the lake overlay district, a good 7 example of that would be Quaker Lake. Again, what happens 8 there is that those additional standards in that table 9 apply. Other questions or comments? 10 MR. SCHWAB: My name is Richard Schwab. I 11 live in Liberty Township. And currently, on the proposed 12 map, the property I own is zoned residential, and I would 13 like to find out what it takes to get that rezoned or 14 changed on the map before an Ordinance passes to a 15 rural-agricultural? 16 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. So what you saying is 17 that you would prefer to have your property zoned 18 rural-agricultural. 19 MR. SCHWAB: Yes. 20 MR. HELFRICH: I think just by entering that 21 into the record, that will bring it up before the 22 supervisors for consideration prior to the Ordinance being 23 adopted. 24 MR. SCHWAB: Okay, thank you. 25 MR. HELFRICH: More questions? Yes, ma'am. 9 1 MS. EVERITT: Carol Everitt again. What if 2 people aren't here, and they didn't make it to the meeting 3 for whatever reason, and they have concerns about how their 4 property is classified right now? 5 MR. HELFRICH: They can certainly let us know, 6 let their supervisors know about that in the next several 7 weeks, if you want to let them know that. Because there 8 won't be any formal action taken on adoption for at least a 9 month or two. There will be another round of hearings 10 before any action is taken on the Ordinance or maps. 11 MR. FRUEHAN: Small question. My name is 12 Francis Fruehan, Silver Lake Township. 13 MR. HELFRICH: Could you repeat your name, 14 please? 15 MR. FRUEHAN: Francis Fruehan, F-R-U-E-H-A-N. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Thank you. 17 MR. FRUEHAN: Section 1209, Time Limits on 18 Permits and I could quickly read the section: 19 "Any building construction shall be started 20 within six (6) months and be completed within two (2) years 21 of issuance of applicable permit..." unless you get an 22 extension. 23 "Otherwise, a permit shall be considered to 24 automatically have expired at the end of such two (2) year 25 period." 10 1 Where is says "applicable permit" what does 2 that mean? Zoning permit or building permit? 3 MR. HELFRICH: It would be just the zoning 4 permit. 5 MR. FRUEHAN: Just the zoning permit? 6 MR. HELFRICH: Right. Because it's in the 7 Zoning Ordinance. 8 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. Where is says "finished" 9 what does that mean? Final inspection? Shell in? 10 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, final inspection in terms 11 of what the Zoning Ordinance requirements are in which to 12 confirm the setbacks, adequate water, and sewer. If it 13 expires, you could reapply and be reissued another permit. 14 MR. FRUEHAN: What's the cost? 15 MR. HELFRICH: That has not yet been 16 determined. 17 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. 18 MR. HELFRICH: But it will be much lower than 19 the UCC permit. 20 MR. FRUEHAN: I hope, yeah, that's very 21 expensive. Who gets the revenue? I assume you have to get 22 a re-permit. I can see that there's work involved when you 23 get a permit, review it, check it out. So you're just 24 lacking your final wiring and plumbing inspection, stuff 25 like that, and you have to get a new permit? 11 1 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. If it expires without 2 being renewed, yes. Then, the cost of that permit could be 3 adjusted because it is a renewal. 4 MR. FRUEHAN: Here's what I'd like to see, the 5 UCC, Uniform Construction Code, that Pennsylvania adopted 6 has a five-year limit on the permit for building permits. 7 I'd like to see this two-year zoning permit be stretched out 8 to five years to match the building permit. 9 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 10 MR. FRUEHAN: I mean two years is not a very 11 long time. If you are hiring a contractor to do it, they 12 will be done in eight months, but a -- not many people are 13 doing this anymore. The family building their own house -- 14 even working diligently, nights and weekends -- two years is 15 not enough. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. So noted. 17 MR. FRUEHAN: Friends of mine are building 18 timber frames. It takes a year just to cut the frame. 19 These guys are working hard, at night with the floodlights 20 on in the garage doing it. 21 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 22 MR. FRUEHAN: And larger buildings, big 23 projects like middle schools, dormitories -- two years, real 24 easy. 25 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. So noted. Other 12 1 questions or comments? Yes, sir. 2 MR. LESCH: Earl Lesch, Silver Lake Township. 3 MR. HELFRICH: Could you spell your last name, 4 please? 5 MR. LESCH: L-E-S-C-H. I notice that in the 6 rural-agricultural district that a conditional use is a 7 livestock operation. I guess I don't understand how you can 8 have an art studio or something like that in an agricultural 9 district, but you have to get qualification or permission to 10 have a livestock operation. By definition agricultural is 11 one of the those processes. 12 MR. HELFRICH: All right. So you are 13 suggesting, your comment is that livestock operations, and 14 this is in the Silver Lake Township Ordinance, should be 15 considered a principal permitted use. 16 MR. LESCH: Exactly. 17 MR. HELFRICH: Other comments or questions? 18 MR. SCHWAB: I have a similar question in 19 going through the Rural-Agricultural District Schedule of 20 Uses that's provided for the other than Silver Lake 21 townships. I notice that a conditional use is listed as 22 archery range; but, yet, group homes are permitted uses by 23 the zoning officer. 24 I was wondering what the logic and thought 25 processes were for assigning some of the categories to the 13 1 zoning officer side versus conditional uses? 2 Some are obvious -- you put in an airport, you 3 want the supervisors to review it; but some of these, I 4 question whether they should in be in the right area, things 5 like group homes, for example. 6 MR. HELFRICH: Specifically to group homes, a 7 group home under case law, and under the Fair Housing Act, 8 and Federal Statute has to be treated the same as a 9 single-family dwelling. 10 If you take a look at the definition of a 11 group home in the Ordinance, I think it's limited to six or 12 fewer residents and they have to function as a household. 13 So that's why that particular one is a principal permitted 14 use. It's because case law and Federal Law says that you 15 have to do that. 16 In terms of the split between principal 17 permitted and conditional uses, we reviewed those quite a 18 few number of times and just had the discussion on which 19 ones we thought were more appropriate to go through that 20 extra step of the Planning Commission and the Board of 21 Supervisors. Is it subjective decision? Absolutely -- but 22 this is what the committee came up with. 23 MR. SCHWAB: The other follow-up comment that 24 I would like to make is that I would like to encourage a 25 review of the requirement that a minimum lot size is one 14 1 acre. Only because of the requirement for single-family 2 dwellings, you are looking at having both water supply and 3 sewage disposal on the same property. With the shallow 4 soils and the heavy clay soils that we have in a lot of 5 places, at least in Liberty Township, we don't perk well, if 6 at all. 7 I'd like the folks to take a look at that and 8 perhaps look at expanding the acreage size requirement; but 9 also, if you are going stay with one acre lot size, look at 10 more of this conservation design subdivision to try to 11 cluster the development in limited areas with centralized 12 sewage disposal in an effort to try to protect our fresh 13 water supply. 14 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. The one thing I might 15 say on that is if you take a look, and you don't have this 16 section, but if you take a look at the Definition Section. 17 In a new subdivision, when you calculate lot 18 area, you have to deduct out certain areas before you 19 calculate the lot area and that would be floodplains, 20 wetlands, and constrained lands. So in a sense the absolute 21 minimum is one acre, but that would be good land. So that 22 is almost like a floating lot size that you have. 23 If half of your lot is wetlands, you can't 24 count that towards your minimum one acre. So that is taken 25 into account and we do provide for conservation design in 15 1 the Ordinance. 2 In Silver Lake Township the minimum lot size 3 is, they have decided to go with two acres. In the balance 4 of Northern Tier, they have decided to stick with what the 5 County's is at one acre and that eliminates constrained 6 land. 7 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions or comments? 8 MS. BOUMAN: Kate Bouman, Silver Lake 9 Township. I just have a quick question. Do we also in 10 Silver Lake Township with the two acres eliminate the 11 constrained lands? 12 MS. EVERITT: I am sorry, could you repeat 13 question? I couldn't hear what you said. 14 MS. BOUMAN: In Silver Lake Township, where 15 the lot size minimum is larger, two acres, I was wondering 16 if we also eliminated the kinds of land that were possible 17 to build on, like wetlands? 18 MR. HELFRICH: The answer is yes. The way 19 that it's written it is still eliminated, but what you are 20 bringing up is a Clean and Green issue, which we will have 21 to address. 22 MR. BAYNE: Bill Bayne, Liberty Township. 23 Bayne, B-A-Y-N-E. A problem we had in the township a number 24 of years ago was a trailer park, a proposed trailer park of 25 80 units a mile up a dirt road. I see mobile home parks are 16 1 a conditional use in rural-agricultural. 2 I wonder if anything is addressed as far as 3 facilities, infrastructure, I guess is the word, as far as 4 roads and that sort of thing? Is there any way of limiting 5 them to roads that are capable of handling that sort of 6 development? 7 MR. HELFRICH: There's nothing in the 8 Ordinance that limits them to specific roads; and, again, 9 mobile home parks you really can't treat differently in 10 terms of residential development than you can a 11 single-family subdivision. In the County Subdivision 12 Ordinance there are standards that apply to the development 13 of mobile home parks as well. 14 MR. BAYNE: There are in the Liberty Township 15 Subdivision Ordinance, as well. 16 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Right. 17 MR. BAYNE: I believe they are basically the 18 same. I just wondered if there was anything beyond? 19 MR. HELFRICH: No. Other questions or 20 comments? 21 MS. O'REILLY: Cathy O'Reilly, Silver Lake and 22 Forest Lake townships. I notice on the map, and maybe I'm 23 reading it wrong, there's a zoning around our campground, 24 Lake Timberline Campground, and it is designated as a 25 residential zoning area. 17 1 It is a campground, and I see that under 2 rural-agricultural there is a permitted use for camps, adult 3 and youth. I'd like to put into the record that we should 4 be under a rural-agricultural designation. 5 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Thank you. Other 6 questions or comments? 7 MR. FRUEHAN: Francis Fruehan again, Silver 8 Lake. I just found out about this two days ago. I printed 9 everything out last night. I took part of the day off and 10 was only able to get through the section on signs and 11 administration and that's skimming through it. I found some 12 fairly outrageous stuff just for signs. I will just go 13 through a few, 1104.1 Prohibited Signs: 14 "Signs which are attached or otherwise 15 attached to a building and project more than fifteen 16 (15) inches beyond the wall surface..." 17 That's ridiculous. You can't have a sign that 18 projects that far (indicating) past a wall? Am I 19 understanding that right? 20 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. 21 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. That should be looked 22 at. 23 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Fine. 24 MR. FRUEHAN: That's just somebody's opinion 25 that they thought that didn't aesthetically look good. 18 1 Signs on vehicles, I am surprised that is even 2 addressed. It says signs placed on or affixed to vehicles 3 are essentially exempt. 4 "However, this is not in any way intended to 5 permit signs placed on or affixed to vehicles... which are 6 parked on a public right-of-way, public property, or private 7 property so as to be visible from a public right-of-way 8 where the apparent purpose is to advertise [the sign]." 9 So a contractor who has a sign on the side of 10 his truck, parked in his own driveway, if you can see it 11 from the road, it's prohibited? 12 MR. HELFRICH: I don't read it that way if 13 that's part of his normal operation. 14 MR. FRUEHAN: I know you guys are not that 15 unreasonable, but this is the way I read it. It could be a 16 bread van or it could be a contractor's van with big 17 plumbing letters? 18 MR. HELFRICH: If it's part of his normal 19 operation of business and he's using it for business then 20 that would not apply. That's applying to, you know, you 21 often see along the interstate somebody that has an old van 22 sitting there with a, basically what it is is a billboard. 23 That's what that applies to. 24 MR. FRUEHAN: Maybe it could be unregistered 25 vehicle? But that could be looked at. 19 1 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 2 MR. FRUEHAN: It says symbols or insignia, 3 these are exempt like a religious symbol less than 4 square 4 feet. 5 I am just thinking, for example, there's a 6 stone, I guess you would call it a sign at St. Augustine 7 Church that is bigger than 4 square feet; so that would need 8 a sign permit to put that up? 9 MR. HELFRICH: Right. 10 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. Off-premise Advertising 11 Signs, Section 1109.6: 12 "No off-premises advertising sign or 13 billboards shall be permitted within five hundred (500) feet 14 of another..." 15 Doesn't give any size. Like I can understand 16 a billboard on a highway sign, but it doesn't specify. It 17 could be a 2 by 2 sign? It has to be 500 feet from another? 18 I see signs for people's businesses all over. 19 I assume they have permission from the property owner. It 20 could be George's Auto, Sea Hag Soaps. I think these are 21 important signs for these people's business, to find it out 22 here, and it is essentially prohibited. 23 There is a clause about more than 200 feet 24 from an intersection. There's a clause, they're called 25 nonconforming signs, which are grandfathered signs. So the 20 1 sign that's existing is basically grandfathered, so if it's 2 damaged to the extent of 50 percent or more it cannot be 3 replaced? So somebody pulls one of these person's signs, it 4 can't be replaced? That is prohibited? They have to go get 5 a variance? 6 MR. HELFRICH: So what you are suggesting is 7 that the damage provision should be higher. 8 MR. FRUEHAN: I'm suggesting it is a crazy 9 Ordinance and should have a sign limit or a size limit or 10 something. I just have never seen a problem in here in 11 20 years. I'm sure they exist somewhere in world, but... 12 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. So you are saying the 13 sign regulations are more than necessary. 14 MR. FRUEHAN: Way more. Obsolete Signs. 15 This is 1111.1: 16 "Any sign, whether existing on or erected 17 after the effective date of this Ordinance, which advertises 18 a business no longer being conducted or a product no longer 19 being offered for sale in or from the premises on which the 20 sign is located, shall be removed within ninety (90)days..." 21 For example, the old General Store in 22 Birchardville might have signs up and they have to be 23 removed? I know that's not reasonable and might not be 24 required, but that is the way this reads. 25 You could have a sign like Cracker Barrel or 21 1 you could have an old motor oil sign for a product that they 2 don't make anymore on the side of your barn or your business 3 that is decorative or antique, that's prohibited and it has 4 to be removed? 5 Engineering certification. No size limit 6 here. I know large signs have to be checked for wind load. 7 "Any applications for an off-premise 8 advertising sign or billboard shall be accompanied by a 9 certification under seal by a Professional Engineer..." 10 No size limit. 11 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. 12 MR. FRUEHAN: No square footage. Where can I 13 get a sign permit? How much does is it going to cost me? 14 Do I have to drive down to New Milford to get a sign permit? 15 MR. HELFRICH: Once this is adopted, yes. The 16 amount has not been set yet. 17 MR. FRUEHAN: That's long way to drive 18 especially since New Milford is not in the Northern Tier, it 19 is out of the area. It should be available -- it should be 20 like now where you don't have to get permits for these or it 21 should be available a lot closer than that. 22 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. Yes, sir. 23 MR. LESCH: Earl Lesch, Silver Lake Township. 24 In the half an hour that I have been here, I believe right 25 now that this is an attack on our liberties and freedoms in 22 1 the rural area that we live in. I'm a rookie here. I've 2 only been living here for 33 years and the reason that I am 3 here is because of that, the freedoms and the liberties that 4 we have. 5 About 20 years ago I considered moving to 6 Colorado. When I went to Colorado, they told me that the 7 house that I had had to have the same color paint on the 8 fence; and that if my satellite dish was visible, I would be 9 fined $500; so I would have had to buy a Styrofoam rock to 10 put over my satellite dish. 11 I believe that this is the first step in 12 taking these liberties away from us. This area has been 13 around for a long time. It's a quaint area. It's a very 14 nice area. I think this is going destroy it. That's my 15 comment. 16 (Applause) 17 MR. HELFRICH: Other comments, questions? 18 MS. EVERITT: Carol Everitt again. On the 19 zoning map we noted that around all the lakes there's a 20 250-foot residential designation. Is that what is intended 21 to be the lake overlay district, around the lakes like that? 22 What if somebody, a farmer, and their property 23 backs up onto a lake, are they going to be not allowed to 24 have their farm in the residential area that now surrounds 25 every lake in the township? 23 1 MR. HELFRICH: Crop production is allowed in 2 all of the districts. 3 MS. EVERITT: Residential? 4 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. 5 MS. EVERITT: But they have to get a special 6 permit because it's a residential area. 7 MR. HELFRICH: No. It's a principal permitted 8 use, crop production in all districts. 9 MS. EVERITT: Okay. 10 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, sir. 11 MR. ADAMS: Greg Adams, Silver Lake Township. 12 I agree with the gentleman. I've poured through the 13 documents as much as I could -- extremely intrusive. My 14 question would be: How are these issues that are raised 15 tonight, what is the procedure or protocol to address those? 16 And how do we know that they are being addressed? 17 MR. HELFRICH: We are taking a stenographic 18 record and the Northern Tier is going to be looking at all 19 of the comments at some upcoming meetings that they are 20 going to be having, at their normal meetings. 21 MR. ADAMS: Will you be bringing those 22 comments out publicly to address those comments? 23 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. What we intend to do is 24 post those comments, the record, on the website. 25 MS. EVERITT: Which website is that? The 24 1 Silver Lake? 2 MR. HELFRICH: No. It's ntc-susq.org. 3 MS. EVERITT: Is that on any of the papers 4 that we got? 5 MR. HELFRICH: I don't know that it's on any 6 of those papers, but it is N-T-C dash S-U-S-Q dot O-R-G. 7 MS. EVERITT: Ntc-susq.org? 8 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. 9 MS. EVERITT: Will the zoning maps be 10 available on that website also? 11 MR. HELFRICH: They are already on the 12 website. 13 MR. FRUEHAN: Francis Fruehan again. I want 14 to say that I am not opposed to reasonable zoning. I kind 15 of like the way our supervisors do things. I like that. 16 I am not opposed to -- I am actually adamantly 17 for setbacks and I like the way our supervisors increased 18 them because I am a bit of a libertarian. I believe that 19 the larger the lot, the larger the setbacks, the less laws 20 you will need, and the less you will interfere with your 21 neighbor. 22 I do believe that this thing has gone 23 overboard, particularly the hiring of a full-time zoning 24 officer. 25 I was down at County Planning a few months ago 25 1 talking to Eleanor there and she told me about the only 2 thing they were doing with the plan was Timberline RV and 3 that was about the only thing going on in town. 4 I called back today and talked to her and 5 asked if anything was new since the last time and she told 6 me that Timberline RV, that's Denny O'Reilly's thing, and a 7 car wash stall addition down in Hallstead. That was it. 8 She said Cabot Oil and Gas is putting in a compressor 9 station somewhere. 10 Three businesses have closed since then, and 11 this is in the County. So businesses are closing faster 12 than they are opening or expanding. 13 I looked through all the meeting notes in 14 Silver Lake Township for January, February, March -- no 15 assessment permits were given. Maybe there are building 16 permits. I don't know. I haven't seen any new houses going 17 up that I can recollect. There's a lot of work going on at 18 the lakes. Those are assessment permits, ancillary 19 structures. 20 So I don't see anything going on. I don't 21 know what a full-time zoning officer is going to do besides 22 suck the clock. I know you are going to -- grant money is 23 paying for this. That grant money expires. Are you going 24 to phase this thing out once the grant money expires? 25 I object to, what do they call it, the 26 1 Executive Committee. Are those paid positions for the 2 Zoning Executive Committee, the four person Executive 3 Committee? 4 MR. HELFRICH: No. 5 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. The way I read it, two of 6 the members are Northern Tier, two of the members are with 7 COG. I think all of the members should be Northern Tier and 8 not COG, even if these COG members are part of Northern 9 Tier. I don't see why COG should sit in on this Executive 10 Committee. 11 And also, the first time I became aware you 12 were hiring a zoning officer I came to a township meeting, I 13 think it was in January. You said you would be interviewing 14 for one. You told me COG would just do the payroll, like 15 say Kelly Services -- if you wanted to hire somebody but not 16 administer the payroll, you hire them through Kelly 17 services. It appears that COG is going to administer this 18 whole thing; is that correct? 19 MR. SWAN: Yes. 20 MR. FRUEHAN: So you are handing everything 21 over to COG? You say one stop shopping, Tom, or economy of 22 scale. Economy of scale works for Wal-Mart. I've never 23 seen economy of scale work for government. It just gets 24 bigger and bigger. 25 MR. SWAN: Well, the Executive Committee and 27 1 COG are Supervisors and they are members of the Northern 2 Tier Coalition. 3 MR. FRUEHAN: You have four Northern Tier 4 members, why have COG members sit on? That's like if I 5 hired a temp through Kelly Services for me and my partner to 6 have Kelly Services sit in on our partnership meeting. 7 That's the way I see it. 8 MR. HELFRICH: We don't need to debate this 9 back and forth. Your position is? 10 MR. FRUEHAN: Tom, can I hear your comment or 11 whoever? 12 MR. SWAN: I am just listening. We are just 13 listening tonight. 14 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 MR. HELFRICH: Other questions or comments? 16 MR. SCHWAB: Richard Schwab, Liberty Township. 17 I have the advantage of having gone to the meeting last 18 week, as Mr. Helfrich recalls. And one of the big issues 19 discussed last week was whether or not, based on the 20 attendance at the current series of meetings, whether the 21 citizenry in the various townships are really aware of the 22 impact and the effect that this is going to have on their 23 living within the various townships once it is enacted. 24 I will say that when the Northern Tier 25 Coalition prepared your report, did their research amongst 28 1 the various communities that they, in fact, did a very good 2 job. I think they need to be applauded for the way they 3 approached that report. 4 Having read as much as I've been able to read 5 in the last week online and looking at the attendance at the 6 meeting here and also last week in Montrose, I wonder if 7 there isn't a need to reach out a little more personally to 8 the individual people; and perhaps not nearly as intensively 9 as you did with the Northern Tier report, but at least at a 10 higher level to make sure you get feedback on this proposal 11 that will have a pretty major impact on people's lifestyles 12 in the communities affected. 13 MR. TRECOSKE: I'd say that's a good point. 14 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, ma'am. 15 MS. EVERITT: Carol Everitt, again. What is 16 the plan of action? You mentioned earlier that there were 17 going to be additional meetings on this? 18 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. 19 MS. EVERITT: I wondered what, the gentleman 20 said it would be a couple of months before anything 21 happened, but what's going to happen? What's the plan? 22 MR. HELFRICH: What we will be doing is 23 collating all of the comments from the hearings that we have 24 had, and then discussing those at either a special Northern 25 Tier meeting or they meet the third Thursday of every month. 29 1 But we may well have some special workshops to 2 review the comments and then decide where they are going to 3 go with the Ordinance, make whatever changes the Northern 4 Tier feels is necessary. Then there will be another round 5 of public hearings scheduled before any adoption. That's 6 going to take at least two or three months. 7 MS. EVERITT: And is the adoption voted on 8 just by the supervisors? Or is it up to the township 9 constituency to vote on it? 10 MR. HELFRICH: No. The township supervisors 11 have the authority to make the decision. That's the way it 12 is laid out in the Municipalities Planning Code and each 13 individual township will have their own Ordinance. They are 14 working together, but it's not one Ordinance. Each township 15 will adopt their own Ordinance and the decision will be made 16 by the Board of Supervisors of each municipality. 17 MR. COX: John Cox, Silver Lake Township. I 18 really think that something that is going to impact people's 19 lives and where they live and everything should be up to a 20 public vote, not up to the supervisors. Three or four 21 people shouldn't be making the decision for 1500. 22 MR. HELFRICH: Well, actually, under 23 Pennsylvania Law there is no authority to put this on the 24 ballot. 25 MR. COX: We don't care about Pennsylvania 30 1 Law. What we are caring about is that our township, we live 2 in it, we should have a say. If Pennsylvania isn't telling 3 us we even have to have this? 4 MR. HELFRICH: Okay. But you say to put it -- 5 have the people vote on it, but there is no mechanism to put 6 it on the ballot. 7 MR. COX: We will write it. I will make 8 copies of it for you -- I will write it out and make copies 9 and let people just check whether yes or no; you know? 10 MR. FRUEHAN: A survey, is that possible? 11 MR. HELFRICH: We did a survey as far as the 12 Comprehensive Plan. 13 MR. ADAMS: Greg Adams again. It seems that 14 more and more people are becoming aware of what's going on. 15 Is Silver Lake planning on a meeting just because it has to 16 adopt the Ordinance on its own, just with the supervisors to 17 have a discussion, not just a listening period, so we can 18 actually have a dialogue about this? Is that in the works? 19 Is that the plan? 20 MR. DUGAN: We hadn't planned on it. We were 21 going to have a public meeting for public comment, but as 22 far as a dialogue, we usually have dialogs at -- 23 MR. ADAMS: It was just stated it's not in 24 Pennsylvania Law that the voters get to choose. So the fact 25 that you gentlemen are choosing for us, I think that that 31 1 makes perfect sense that we have the opportunity to discuss 2 it with you. 3 MR. DUGAN: As I was going to say, at all of 4 our meetings we have public comment and we have a dialogue 5 at those meetings. At formal meetings we have what we 6 call -- 7 MR. ADAMS: But you also have the ability to 8 hold a special meeting to address this issue. 9 MR. DUGAN: -- Okay. You go ahead -- you 10 talk. 11 MR. HELFRICH: All right. Yes, sir. 12 MR. FRUEHAN: Is it possible to hold a special 13 meeting? I, my neighbor, where is he, George. I would not 14 have known about that if I hadn't been running around the 15 lake and he told me about it. 16 I know you guys have been doing it for a 17 longtime, but that's kind of your world. You are immersed 18 in this. You are at these buildings. It's your job all the 19 time. You are working on it. You are at these meetings 20 every month. The rest of us, we got our noses to the 21 grindstone, raising our families and working. 22 I have very limited time to check. I try to 23 check the websites every month or something to see what's 24 going on. I called a handful of people today, nobody knew 25 about this. Probably ten friends and nobody knew about it. 32 1 MR. HELFRICH: That's a decision that the 2 supervisors will have to make. 3 MR. FRUEHAN: I'd like -- if we could have 4 this a little more publicized, even in front of the fire 5 station on a sign so the people know about this. I don't 6 read the legals. I don't get the Binghamton Press. 7 MR. SWAN: They're not in the legals. 8 MR. HELFRICH: These were. 9 MR. SWAN: Not all of them. 10 MR. HELFRICH: Well, one was in the 11 Pennysaver. 12 MR. FRUEHAN: Well, I don't read the 13 Pennysaver. 14 MR. HELFRICH: Your point is that -- 15 MR. FRUEHAN: This is an important thing. 16 Again, I'm not against everything here, there's just some 17 stuff -- what alarms me, the sign thing, I just saw some 18 stuff that is going to affect people. You almost have to be 19 in business or have friends of your's in business to really 20 see what this means to us. 21 I am for protecting property, people's 22 property, and their property values from disrespectful and 23 selfish neighbors, but again, this is going overboard. I 24 think if we could have -- slow down a little bit and really 25 get where people can have a chance to look at this and make 33 1 them aware of it. 2 I know it's on the website, but most people 3 don't know that. I know a lot of people aren't going to 4 care and take the time and I think there are concerned 5 people out there that have to be notified. 6 MR. DUGAN: Carson, how many meetings have we 7 had so far? Just a rough guess-timation? 8 MR. HELFRICH: There are these four and I can 9 remember at least three others. At least three others, 10 that's what comes to mind, and we've had a series of 11 meetings and... 12 MR. FRUEHAN: Is this on the Ordinance itself, 13 once the draft was provided? Or was this back in the 14 planning? 15 MR. HELFRICH: No. It was separate from the 16 planning. Any other specific questions? And we will be 17 happy to stay afterward to answer questions or whatever. 18 Any other specific comments on the ordinance itself at this 19 point? 20 MS. O'REILLY: Cathy O'Reilly again. One 21 question I have is in a certain township, say Silver Lake 22 Township, who decided and how was it decided what areas -- 23 other than the lake overlays, I can understand that, and I 24 agree with that a lot of the general idea of protecting the 25 properties. We've done it for years and we did it through 34 1 deed restrictions on all of our deeds on any property that 2 we've ever sold. 3 I just want to know how do we determine -- how 4 did the township determine which areas are considered 5 residential and which areas are considered rural-ag in, say, 6 Silver Lake Township -- other than the lake overlay? 7 MR. HELFRICH: Basically it was done by a 8 group of folks who sat down and looked at the map and had a 9 discussion and then said this is what we think, and this is 10 what we are going to propose at the hearing, and if there's 11 any concerns we will consider changes. 12 MS. O'REILLY: What about in the future? 13 Areas that aren't -- areas that are rural-agricultural that 14 should certainly be changed over to a, under your 15 specifications, to a residential zoning? 16 MR. HELFRICH: What happens then is either the 17 township themselves can initiate a change or a property 18 owner can request a change; and then there is the amendment 19 procedure that you go through, a public hearing; you have to 20 notify the County and they have an opportunity to review it. 21 But there is a procedure that you go through to make a 22 change. 23 MS. O'REILLY: The reason I am asking, to be 24 specific, Jessup Township. I know that's not a township at 25 this meeting, but I looked at the map for Jessup Township 35 1 yesterday and there was three areas that are effected. All 2 three of them are areas that we are doing, our family, my 3 brother is doing a subdivision and that's it for the whole 4 township. 5 MR. HELFRICH: That point was brought out at 6 the meeting in Friendsville, and I know that they are going 7 to take a look at that. 8 MS. O'REILLY: Why certain areas? It just 9 seems like it's not -- there's certain areas that are being 10 picked for a reason. 11 MR. HELFRICH: I don't know the answer to 12 that. 13 MR. LESCH: Earl Lesch, again. It would seem 14 to me that in tune with the Cathy's comments that there 15 should be some criteria that establishes what is a 16 residential area. Houses per square mile or people? 17 I don't see that criteria. Maybe it's in the 18 -- I don't have the large document. Certainly the 19 definitions of what establishes something should be 20 published. That's got to be part of this whole process. 21 MR. HELFRICH: That's was all fostered in the 22 Comprehensive Plan. There's some language that talks about 23 residential areas. Again, is it someone subjective? Yes. 24 One of reasons for having this hearing is to get people's 25 thoughts on if those areas should be changed. 36 1 MR. FRUEHAN: Another small issue is in the 2 Guide to Using the Zoning Ordinance. There's a section 3 regarding nonconforming use of grandfathered structures. 4 MR. HELFRICH: Yes. 5 MR. FRUEHAN: It says essentially the 6 grandfathered structures can continue to be used even after 7 they are sold, but here is the however: 8 "However, if the nonconforming use is 9 discontinued or abandoned, it cannot be reinitiated." 10 I will give you an example, Tucker's Store. I 11 know you guys would like to see that store open up so you 12 wouldn't give them any heat -- you'd give them probably 13 their zoning variance permit again. But if somebody buys 14 that store, they are going to have to go through the zoning 15 variance problem or process to get that open again; is that 16 correct? 17 MR. HELFRICH: I'm not sure. What district is 18 it in? 19 MR. FRUEHAN: I think it's in RA. 20 MR. HELFRICH: If it's in an RA district, it 21 wouldn't be a nonconforming use because retail is allowed in 22 the RA district. 23 MR. DUGAN: It's in the residential. 24 MR. HELFRICH: It's in the residential 25 district? 37 1 MR. DUGAN: Still it's been offered for sale 2 ever since it closed down, so it has been actively marketed 3 as such. 4 MR. HELFRICH: So the use has not been 5 abandoned. 6 MR. FRUEHAN: Now, since the January meeting 7 I've been asking our supervisors, they've talked about the 8 RA areas and the residential-ag and they said they were 9 going to be try to be very flexible and about small business 10 and not be restrictive. Can you explain how that's going to 11 happen a little bit? How -- is it allowed just right off 12 the bat? Is is going to go to a zoning? Where's the line? 13 How is that supposed to work? 14 MR. HELFRICH: If you take look in the Silver 15 Lake -- and it's very similar in the overall Northern Tier. 16 MR. FRUEHAN: Just don't put a sign up because 17 then you are in trouble. 18 MR. HELFRICH: In the rural-agricultural 19 district, if you take a look at the uses that are listed as 20 principal permitted uses, those would all be issued by the 21 zoning officer. So let's say if somebody wanted to put in a 22 -- oh, what's a good example here -- if somebody wanted to 23 put in a bed and breakfast establishment, they would just 24 simply need a permit from the zoning officer. 25 Now what happens is, what we tried to do is, 38 1 you can see that that has an asteric behind it -- if you go 2 towards the bottom there if it's within 500 feet of an 3 existing residential dwelling, a parcel with an existing 4 residential dwelling, then it's considered a conditional use 5 so that way the neighbors have an opportunity to see the 6 application. 7 MR. FRUEHAN: I like that. I like that 8 neighbors having an opportunity. 9 MR. HELFRICH: So what we thought was if 10 somebody has a large piece of property and they are doing 11 something in the middle of it that's well away from 12 neighbors then the process is simplified; but let's, for 13 example, somebody putting in -- 14 MR. FRUEHAN: What section is that in? All up 15 front again? 16 MR. HELFRICH: It's in the handout you got 17 tonight. 18 MS. EVERITT: Section IV. 19 MR. HELFRICH: It's in the handout. In the 20 Silver Lake one it's on page IV-5 and also in the Northern 21 Tier overall. 22 Again, what we tried to do is provide for a 23 whole variety of uses in that rural-agricultural district 24 and build in some safeguards if something is happening close 25 to a neighbor. That was the intent. 39 1 MR. FRUEHAN: I bet if Chesapeake Appalachia, 2 anybody wanted to put in a gas and fuel plant right on 3 Murphy's Store corner, they could do it. They'd take it -- 4 I think in a few years they would march all the way... 5 MR. HELFRICH: Conceivably. There's actually 6 some preemptions in the State Laws as far as mineral 7 extraction. 8 MR. FRUEHAN: Okay. If Wal-Mart wanted to buy 9 a spot, pick a spot anywhere they like, and buy a spot on a 10 farm? 11 MR. HELFRICH: I think the Ordinance would 12 hold up on that. 13 Other questions or comments? I will be happy 14 to stick around to answer any specific questions on sections 15 or whatever. There are going to be more hearings on this. 16 I don't want to persuade anybody from making more comments. 17 MR. LESCH: Earl Lesch. I am interested in 18 the mineral extraction clause in the conditional uses. 19 MR. HELFRICH: Right. 20 MR. LESCH: Everyone knows what's going here 21 and is this going to be used as a tool to prevent people 22 from putting a gas well or exploration on their property? 23 MR. HELFRICH: No. Absolutely not because if 24 you comply with the standards, it has to be approved. The 25 standards in here are consistent with what the Commonwealth 40 1 requires. 2 We recognize that and that's one of the 3 reasons, not so much with the gas exploration, but if you 4 look on the left column there the "Mineral extraction" which 5 is the "small license/small permit" which are many of the 6 uses. Many of the quarries in this area are listed as a 7 principal permitted use. So, no -- that's not the intent of 8 this whatsoever. Yes, sir. 9 MR. SCHWAB: To get back to a comment you made 10 about getting surveyed, about the zoning. If I can draw an 11 analogy, that's like saying, "Would you like to buy a car?" 12 Then people said, "Yes," "No," or "I'm not sure." 13 Now that we've developed that we have a Ford 14 Excursion and it gets ten miles to the gallon and price of 15 gas is over $4 I think, again, not to not belabor the point 16 I was trying to make. I think it's time for people to look 17 at what they are buying and to make every effort before you 18 get into passing Ordinances in the individual townships and 19 people are just going to beat the living Dickens out of you 20 looking for waivers after the fact. 21 I think now is the time to make every effort 22 to make sure that people understand what they are buying. 23 MR. HELFRICH: Yes, sir. 24 MR. FRUEHAN: Zoning Hearing Board, I remember 25 reading in the Transcript it was about the Building Code. I 41 1 forget the name of the committee. It's a group of four. 2 MR. HELFRICH: This is separate from the 3 Building Code. 4 MR. FRUEHAN: I know it is. You know the name 5 of that group? It's a four person committee? If you want 6 to challenge the zoning -- 7 MR. PLEVINSKY: It's a Hearing Board. 8 MR. FRUEHAN: A Hearing Board. I remember the 9 costs were like -- I don't remember the final cost but you 10 are estimating in the $600 range. You had to pay for 11 counsel, you had to pay for a stenographer, you had to pay 12 stipends. That's a lot of money. 13 MR. PLEVINSKY: They didn't have counsel, they 14 didn't have a stenographer. They didn't have anything. 15 They represented themselves. 16 MR. FRUEHAN: Who's that? I guess the -- what 17 do you call it the aggrieved homeowner? But still, I 18 thought all that stuff had to be in place? 19 MR. PLEVINSKY: It is. 20 MR. FRUEHAN: Does that person have to pay? 21 MR. PLEVINSKY: It is for UCC. Are you 22 talking zoning or UCC? 23 MR. FRUEHAN: I'm just making a -- I see the 24 same number of people. I see where the zoning you have a -- 25 I saw a $600 number and I am wondering if there is going to 42 1 be a $600 number for a zoning variance too? That's 2 expensive. 3 MR. HELFRICH: We have not set those fees yet. 4 MR. FRUEHAN: I have a feeling that could be 5 very expensive. I don't see the difference -- it's the same 6 number of people. You have to pay a stipend, a 7 stenographer. The cost should be very similar even though 8 they are different applications. 9 MR. HELFRICH: So your point is that the fee 10 should be as low as possible. 11 MR. FRUEHAN: It's just going to make it -- 12 you are going to have to have a pretty big deal or issue 13 that is pretty dear to you, or towards your business, or 14 very necessary to spend that kind of money. 15 MR. HELFRICH: Additional comments, questions? 16 MS. EVERITT: I was just reading through the 17 lake overlay district and it says that you can't stay 18 overnight on a boat? So that's seems somewhat restrictive 19 to me. I have a boat that I can sleep on and I am not 20 allowed to? 21 MR. HELFRICH: The intent is there to prevent 22 somebody from making a residence out of a boat. 23 MS. EVERITT: That's little different than 24 staying overnight on a boat, not making a residence out of a 25 boat and staying overnight one night on a boat are. 43 1 MR. HELFRICH: It says "residential occupancy 2 of any boat or other watercraft." It doesn't say just stay 3 overnight. 4 MS. EVERITT: "On an overnight/permanent 5 basis." It just says "overnight." It doesn't say overnight 6 permanently. It says slash so that would be either 7 overnight or permanent. 8 MR. HELFRICH: The intent there is -- 9 MS. EVERITT: Well maybe we need to strike 10 "overnight." 11 MR. HELFRICH: That might be a good 12 suggestion. The intent is not to prevent somebody, but I've 13 seen where -- 14 MS. EVERITT: You don't want them to live on 15 the lake. 16 MR. HELFRICH: That's correct. That's correct 17 and that has happened. 18 Okay. That's a good point and that will be in 19 the record and we will take a look at that. 20 MS. EVERITT: Okay. Thank you. 21 MR. HELFRICH: Sure. Anything else? All 22 right. We thank everybody for coming and we will stick 23 around to answer any questions. Meeting adjourned. 24 (Whereupon the meeting and hearing was 25 adjourned at 7:59 p.m.)